@raqdog that's the bourgeois, lol.

"We may summarize the Marxian doctrine in this way: In the beginning there are the 'material productive forces', i.e., the technological equipment of human productive efforts, the tools and machines. No question concerning their origin is permitted; they are, that is all; we must assume that they are dropped from heaven."

so? I don't understand the implication of the point your saying anyway. I'm not a Marxist, anyway.

It's the way hierarchal structures function

It predates or abilities to climb trees

@Leiro レイロ what are you then

historical materialism doesnt prove or mean anything

that's under capitalism lol, under socialism there would be no hierarchy

@Egoy democratic socialist

read Karl Popper if you still believe in historical materialism or historicism

Hierarchies exist in animals in our ancestral chain that predates our abilities to climb trees

Hierarchies are how we function. Put 10 kids in a room and they will form a hierarchy

A hierarchy of who's tallest, who's smartest, who is better at hand stands, whatever you want

I don't understand the point your saying in relation to socialism, if anything that signifies capitalism

The same leaders will rise to the top for the same reasons in a socialist society

Or a communist one

there is no "top" in a socialist society, its democracy at its highest.

The benevolent leader you describe does not climb that hierarchy. And when he does he gets killed

it's liquid democracy

Even worse

That's probably even worse. Now we are talking about the 2 wolves voting to eat the 1 sheep

how do you tread the line between socialism and invidiual liberty in democratic socialism

its like an oxymoron

Democratic socialism is achieving socialism through democratic means, I haven't researched much on libertarian socialism

in a democratic socialist society they prioritize the authority of the bureaucracy over individual rights

that is literally anti democratic

what no, a bureaucracy under socialism is made up by workers, and for the workers. if your referring to to the state under socialism, it's made up of people, and will be under the whip of the people. As I said, I don't know much about social liberties or libertarian socialism in general.

you said youre a democratic socialist though...

Democratic socialism, as I said, is achieving socialism through democratic means. There's a whole new catered to that, called libertarian socialism

and you abandon individual authority for a more centralized bureaucracy (even if its filled with "workers") you are still sacrificing personal autonomy

im just pointing out that the term is completely oxymoronic

lol, socialism is about making decisions democratically and decided on by every worker, that suppresses personal and individual autonomy?

your argument is about libertarian socialism, I don't know much about libertarian socialism

yes because you have representatives representing the wants of a collective

lol

there are no representatives lol

so wait youre a socialist now?

it's direct democracy at its best

yes, I am now, I used to be a rightist

and believed in capitalism

are you against markets completely?