Message from @Grenade123

Discord ID: 467783389236428806


2018-07-14 19:51:40 UTC  

Without an armed force, how do they have power?

2018-07-14 19:52:00 UTC  

They don't. And that is what I want limited. Limited Goverment power.

2018-07-14 19:52:44 UTC  

But this has diverged from the original point. If I don't follow our agreement, who enacts punishment?

2018-07-14 19:53:33 UTC  

A 3rd party voluntarily arbirter.

2018-07-14 19:54:27 UTC  

If you leave your house, who kicks me out if I move in?

2018-07-14 19:55:49 UTC  

I do as I will be defendin my property.

2018-07-14 19:56:10 UTC  

No, at that point you are taking my property

2018-07-14 19:56:28 UTC  

I have physical control over it

2018-07-14 19:56:29 UTC  

So, I will kick you out as I made that claim beforehand.

2018-07-14 19:56:43 UTC  

So you are defining my property?

2018-07-14 19:56:51 UTC  

Yes, as you defined mine.

2018-07-14 19:57:17 UTC  

Then we are in agreement, I define your property. And the reverse is true

2018-07-14 19:57:29 UTC  

In other words, our property is defined by those around us

2018-07-14 19:57:44 UTC  

But not by us

2018-07-14 19:58:29 UTC  

Our property is the whole world until someone stops us from claiming it.

2018-07-14 19:59:07 UTC  

Who defines property as "ours?"

2018-07-14 20:01:24 UTC  

the social contract we have in in a society that enforces that right through force

2018-07-14 20:02:49 UTC  

Our as in yours or mine.

2018-07-14 20:03:14 UTC  

The whole world is mine until you stop me. And the whole world is yours until I stop you.

2018-07-14 20:03:51 UTC  

This eventually means that the person who defines property is the one who is the strongest

2018-07-14 20:04:10 UTC  

Everyone else subject to their will. Or team up.

2018-07-14 20:04:24 UTC  

But what happens when people team up against you?

2018-07-14 20:04:55 UTC  

What makes this any different than government defining what my property is?

2018-07-14 20:07:24 UTC  

You can't have a stateless government and private property because the whoever ends up being the strongest becomes the new "government", or whoever teams up and gets the most support

2018-07-14 20:12:45 UTC  

Defending private property is one of the core reasons governments exist. Who's property depends on the government.

2018-07-14 22:53:20 UTC  

This is where I think you @Grenade123 are missing one point, and @i3utm is failing to put into perspective properly. I am not trying to being rude. just an observation, if I misunderstood something or potentially missed an important point. let me know. There is this concept called the Non Aggression Principle (NAP) What this means is that one person is not to violate someone else's agency via violce. The implication of a stateless society, from my understanding, is in order for this to work, society as a whole must abide by the NAP. Should there be an issue where one person is trying to claim land, that another person owns or is claiming to own, then a third party, mutually agreed upon by the arguing parties will come in and settle the dispute. But should this be a case where it is some jack-waggon coming to just steal your stuff, then a person must have the right to defend themselves and their property via some sort of weapon, which I would assume to be some sort of Gun.

2018-07-14 22:54:14 UTC  

The NAP if held by a society, would make the hypothetical Grenade made, a rare occurrance, in the same manner that it is today. in theory. If society holds this view, then people would not want to aggress people, by societal pressure and the culture that it allows for. At least, so the theory goes. So it wouldnt be this radical society where people are just claiming things for the sake of claiming them. So it would be true that, ownership technically lies within the bounds of the perspective of others in that, there is a mutual understanding that "Item A" is mine and "Item B" would be someone elses. That also isnt completely true either. Just think for a moment if what things you consider yours. Are you saying that the things you purchased from the fruits of your labour are only yours because some raneom guy on the street decides not to take it when he wants it?

2018-07-14 22:54:40 UTC  

Because this would be making true the "mine is inky mine because you allow it to be mine". Or would it be more true that it is yours because you decided that you would to trade it with the fruits of your labor. To further the point, lets say you make something, you put time, effort, and depending on the product blood, intobmaking said product. Does this mean it is not actually yours, even though you made it with your resources? And it is only true because someone else says "yes" this is yours.? Or is it actually yours because you made it?

2018-07-14 22:55:02 UTC  

So the next question becomes What would hold this to remain true for the over arching society? The NAP and the mutual want to not be aggressed and that the things we have un our posession, that we earned and/or worked for is ours, and the a mere claim of someone else saying "That is mine" doesnt make it true that it is theirs.

I should probably state that, I do agree we need to have a government, and that I believe it needs to exist as the sole source of force in terms of defending the people from outside sources, and that the NAP should be generally agreed upon. But when the NAP is violated, we do need some sort of third party to fix the situation or to mediate it, something along the concept of Police.

Again, if I misconstrued anything you guys were saying, or I misunderstood something please let me know.

2018-07-14 23:09:07 UTC  

Couldn't have said it better than myself, @MickeyTheGymMouse (Daniel) I think @Grenade123 is an instigator of provocation and not perspective. haha

2018-07-14 23:11:53 UTC  

@i3utm Maybe not. I dont want to assume that. Maybe he just has a different perspecrive on it, or maybe he couldn't articulate his point well enough? I do not agree that we should have a stateless, im not an Anarcho kind of libertarian. But I do understand the perspecrive of it. Im just trying to learn about things as well. Lol

2018-07-14 23:13:06 UTC  

There are at least a dozen or so different types of Libertarians. I hold a few of the views in one big messy package. 😃

2018-07-14 23:14:21 UTC  

Lmfao. And thatcm is what makes discussions so fun. So, I am a bit ignorant on this. What is Big L libertarian vs. Little L libertarian?

2018-07-14 23:15:39 UTC  

Big L is for the Libertarian Party and its ideals and platform. Little l is for principles that dictate whether or not you vote or you support the Big L or any of its candidates.

2018-07-14 23:17:07 UTC  

One can support Liberty without supporting the party.

2018-07-14 23:18:02 UTC  

Ahh. Okay. I havent heard of those terms until Tim did a month or two back on one of his hour long podcasts, and I havent heard him distinguish between the two. I never really cared to ask before either. 😂

2018-07-14 23:19:04 UTC  

It's an inside thing. Most people are like you and "Wha?" lol

2018-07-14 23:19:44 UTC  

I fully understand the position, I was in an ancap server. There is nothing here I haven't heard before. My issue with it is humans

2018-07-14 23:20:15 UTC  

@Grenade123 im listening.

2018-07-14 23:20:59 UTC  

The Libertarian Party leans right, but there are left-leaning libertarians as well.

2018-07-14 23:21:33 UTC  

I'm a Social Libertarian.