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Japan's industry today is based off of the Korean War
Fact is Chile adopted the free market approach
Japan became more wealthy than their neighbours because they dropped the isolationism and adopted the free market
simple as that
umm, no
Japan did not adopt a free market
Show me a country that improved greatly without millions suffering that didn't use the free market
Yes they did
they had intense protectionism
like the U.K. like the U.S., like Germany
And after that in 1860 they adopted the free market, duh
no, in 1860
and after
they protected Japanese industry so it could compete with other countries
which is exactly what Germany did to develop
No that came even later still, and that's why they suffered in the 80s
before that they had the free market
and it's what the U.S. did as well
they had tariffs, they had government support of industries
Which is a bad idea
See India
which is a good idea
Terrible idea if you know anything about economics
also why the fuck are you even here?
you're an idiot libertarian
hardly left-wing
I never claimed to be left wing
Ran out of arguments or what?
this is literally how economies developed
you're just spouting propaganda without knowing any actual history
I can throw some links at you too, but I like to use my own words
Fact is economies develop faster and better without those government subsidized companies and import taxes and such
yeah, you know which countries have enforced free markets and had for ages?
African countries
sooo developed
Africa had their own issues
the U.S. supports American agriculture
How come free market works in south america, north america, europe and asia then?
the E.U. supports French agriculture
it doesn't
because it isn't practiced
Not completely but the freer it is the better it works
international capitalism is supported by fucking China
Look at the map for economically free countries, always the richest
and could not survive without it
Socialism cannot survive without an underground capitalistic system
fact
Talk a big game but absolutely clueless
Next time you argue don't start with throwing insults
Hello
woah woah woah
"How come free market works in south america, north america, europe and asia then?"
because niggers.
I can't speak for europe
Or really asia
but I assure you the Americas haven't reacted well to the international market
outside of the states
Certain US companies might've done very well due to government backing
and historically because the US government has taken measures to allow some level of self-determination for well-off citizens
I have too ask two things what do you mean by free-market?
where has it helped?
Niggers aren't real. Nice try.
The approach Chile has made to open up the market, which came even before Thatcher and Reagan
There is no reason why Chile is a success now and Brazil isn't
Except for the fact that Brazil fell in the trap of socialism
as we can see now, mass amounts of corruption from these 'well meaning' socialists.
I'm somewhat ignorant of Brazilian politics. To be honest.
Chile's economy has been entirely propped up by governments though. Mostly it's own and America.
Their strongest industry is metal exports I think.
Not at all, the government was tyrannical on all points except economical
I didn't say tyrannical
There was a specific effort in the late 70's to make it a free market, not completely of course
they still had their state corporations but compared to the rest of south america it was
Well whatever they've two major industries that are talked about constantly.
Transportation and copper.
Their copper is managed by the government, and has been though the regime changes.
Yes, but so does Venezuela and Brazil, immensely rich countries in theory, poor in reality
Their trucking and whatnot has always been mostly private.
Utter failure, but logistically despite this the Chilean government has been able to manage to keep people fed under both Allende and Pinochet.
Even now
I never claimed they were a pure free market, but they did slash out a lot of the nonsense in that time
and it shows
What point are you trying to make?
All I'm saying is that the government intervened heavily to make sure the economy worked in a favorable way.
That the free market is better at meeting peoples needs than government
how so?
Not heavily at all compared to other countries
Government propping up businesses that can't stand on their own for example
an absolute money pit
A government owned company that makes money is no problem but most are not and suffer for it
Having a business being government owned doesn't mean much if it still is organized like a capitalist company.
I mean for a centralized industry it works great
A government business will never be organized like a capitalistic company, simply by the fact that it cannot fail.
Like for mining or transportation.
Worst(best) case scenario it gets sold
What kikeshit are you talking about boy?
Good reply
Everything is "government owned" in America
Not at all
If you don't pay your taxes you don't get to keep your stuff.
That's something else from actually making the decisions in that business
The fact is that no one will make better decision for a company than the man who has a risk to lose it all or win it all
are you sure about that?
Government backed businesses never fail and for it it makes bad decisions
Absolutely
Why would a government worker who uses other peoples money make better decisions?
I don't expect either to be particularly great.
Doesn't have to be great, just better
In everything there are winners and losers, but you have to make it so you can win or lose to make it work at all
Try making a casino in which you always leave without winning or losing
That's neat rhetoric, but the problem is that neither the government or the dindu business man are actually held responsible to the workers.
I can pretend the government is democratic
The businessman is absolutely more hurt by the loss than a government worker
I don't care. I'm selfish and I want an economy with organized labor and democracy in the workplace.
Well you can get it in venezuela and cuba
I can get it here too.
Good luck, I don't think you can
Unless you go work for the post office, which are notoriously slow
๐ค
One of my roommates worked for the post office
She was like 64 or something and they wouldn't let her retire because she hadn't worked for them consecutively long enough
And she worked 6 days a week for 10-12 hours a day.
I'd work slow with those hours too lol
fuck me that's bad
Yeah their postmaster was ancient apparently
Like 70 or something
Some ridiculous age where people shouldn't be working anymore
I think a lot of small town post offices end up like that
Though the pay isn't too bad
eh, a lot of stagnation if you get one of those jobs
pay is good for when you're young, then you stay and become comfortable
And the people who took a risk will pass you by mostly
Seen it many times in government organizations, i've worked for some
hi
other people's money?
the whole system of property exists because of the state protecting property rights
which allow the capitalist to steal the labour of the worker and to give back only a fraction of it, in the form of the wages
the one who uses other people's money is the capitalist
^
The capitalist does it with your permission, the state does it by the threat of a gun
And if you make it easier for a worker to start his own business you give him the chance to be his own boss
Business grants are great tbh, even though financial management classes are just better
the capitalist does not do it with your permission, you are coerced by the economic system
How so?
you're not able to live a good life without working for a company, you have no ability to meaningfully negotiate wages
coerced because it is simply better
you're always at fear of being fired, etc. etc.
You do if you have the skills
@Deleted User That's not true at all
Unemployment is at 4,5%, job creation is hitting new highs, wage growth is boosting
Who would fire a good employee?
You're always in risk of losing them to another company if anything
unemployment % does not count people who have dropped out of the workforce
It does
no it does not
There is payroll employment change in either way, so your argument is null
that's literally how unemployment % is calculated and has always been
that also does not include underemployment, wage growth not actually growing (it hasn't for the last, what? 40-50 years?)
@Deleted User There is the U-6 which counts anyone who is unemployed, those seeking and not seeking job.
It is at 8%, which is fairly low for the broad scope of the measure
wages have not grown with either inflation or with productivity
because the ability to negotiate wages lies solely in the hands of the employer
as an individual worker, you have no actual power
Wage Growth in the United States averaged 6.26 percent from 1960 until 2017
You can literally get more power by becoming a better worker
fuck work
Some people won't do well, that's a given
yeah, you want to know something?
But in trying to make their work guaranteed you lower productivity, increase cost
there was more social mobility in the fucking medieval ages than today
want to get more power as a worker?
you don't
want to get richer? you won't
How was the mobility in the socialist countries?
as a whole, it's impossible
there wasn't mobility because that wasn't the god damn fucking point
What system do you propose that is better than capitalism in terms of mobility
it was to get rid of classes, you incipient moron
So no one moves up?\
every other system, basically
Do you understand humans at all?
capitalism has very little mobility
what the fuck is up?
more so than in any alternative
People want to compete and want the prospect of being able to have it better
The inflation average of US has been 3.81% since 1960, while wage growth remained at 6.26%. Therefore, real wages increased by roughly 2.50% yearly. Calling it as stagnant, as well as the increasing payroll jobs (no negative balance since 2009 crisis) as bad is just straight ignorance. @Deleted User
That's how humans are
Again, show me a system that promotes hard work better than capitalism
In fact, it's worth noting that economic liberalism as a whole promoted prosperity on places like US (until 1913), Brazil (until the end of the Empire), Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, Macau and others.
for sure, I like Chile as an example
Much better economy than other south american countries
and why would they do better than a Brazil who has vast resources
Chile isn't a prime example of liberalism (widespread cronyism on AFPs) but yes indeed
It was under the pinochet rule
I live in Brazil and I'll assure you that the lack of economic liberalism failed us
Milton Friedman was involved in that economy
Brazil has had liberal governments supported by the U.S. before
the liberal government today is corrupt as fuck
Wrong.
It's a socialist government
Temer isn't even allowed to run for office!
Military government was keynesian and developmentalist
It was a government owned company that had the corruption that overthrew that lady, forgot her name
And Temer just assumed following the succession line. Anyone literate in politics knows that.
Rousseff
he got in through a coup and most of his cabinet is also under corruption charges
He didn't coup anyone.
oh, I get how you are now
In fact, he was democratically elected because once Rousseff was elected, he was displayed as VP on the election board
one of those dumb Brazilians who blame Rousseff for everything because they're fucking idiots who look at rich media
Wrong.
Still waiting for the dodged question: Again, show me a system that promotes hard work better than capitalism
In fact, I'm one of the few guys who read more than MSM
Temer has single-digit approval ratings
So did Dilma.
no one elected him to be president
at least she was voted in
she was actually less corrupt than most of the other politicians
He was placed as VP by Dilma herself, and he was displayed on election board.
She wasn't.
which was a mistake by her
''she should have been more corrupt'' lmao
never trust a liberal
She placed Lula da Silva as one of her ministers to block him from prison
(he was our president from 2002 to 2010 and a pretty corrupt one btw)
By knowing of his charges and placing him as a minister to intervene on Justice affairs, that's just plain corruption
Or at least a case worthy of impeachment by power abuse
In either way, since we started to talk about Temer, let's talk about his merits too: inflation fell from 9.5% in Rousseff's end to 3% now (and falling quickly)
I don't think he's coming back soon lmao
Jobless rates is finally falling and GDP growth showed an outstanding performance on Q1
@Arash#4421
lmao he left?
He's done it before with me
I love this discord
still no answer to that question, dang
Whats NKVD btw?
Internal police force of Stalin USSR
@Timo))) "show me a system that promotes hard work better than capitalism"?
I wanna try and say tribal society, since if you create double as much you have double as much
A tribal society is not possible anymore and vastly inferior in other aspects
tfw after battling against the local tribe you die of common cold at the advanced age of 22 :anprim:
correct
ehm let's try, market socialism aka coops
So I guess the claim is now that capitalism promotes more hard work than any other viable system
Coops can exist on a capitalist society, really
since you have a part of the profits
I don't think those companies do too well
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