I also hear that

stalin killed people in gulag

and it had bad conditions

yeah, the gulags weren't fun

Propaganda comrade

More lies

@Aidan xD Stalin also paid the clouds to fuck off and used his dialectical wizardry to curse the crops with wheat rust.

^

What kind of idiot would unironically believe Stalin killed 100 million people?

yeah

everyone knows it was 200 million

@Deleted User True, but it is hard to tell at all that it actually was english at all, seeing as how it contains nordic characters such as the Ü and æ characters, which are normally used in germany, and the noridc countries, this shows how the language was a mesh between the vikings and the britan languages, and the middle english language in the end was such a radical change to the language, that it could very well be considered a different language all together from the original english language.

neber forget the ebils of gommunism :DDDDDDD

@Deleted User I can't personally accept that it's a different language altogether but I can understand where you're coming from. You make a fair point.

Joseph "No Rain in The Ukraine" Stalin

@mcstubbs lel

@Deleted User Hmm, if I remember correctly.... didn't the population not decrease due to russia's population size? Though I agree the claim that 80M died because of stalin is questionable, there is no doubt that millions died under stalin.

i'm unsure of the exact numbers because the most i know about the purges and all of that are mainly that of the officer corps of the red army, and that wasn't significant in proportion the the USSR's population

there's a historian that i keep up with who says the most he'd credit him with is 20m, but he's also a trotskyist and a military historian, and he's said himself that he doesn't know the exact number

Now the holodomor was most likely not done intentionally, but because of the famine, and the soviet unions already big shortage on food and it's distrabution, it ended up leaving the kulaks high and dry, which meant that they had to feed themselves during the famine, which led to millions dying.

probably less than 20m, probably more than 3

@mcstubbs No way it was just 3 M.

yeah, definitely more

@mcstubbs At least in the tens od millions.

@Deleted User According to the 1937 census, there were around 162 million people accounted for. This was prior to the devastating losses as a result of WW2 AKA "The Great Patriotic War". And the population increase was primarily due to a radical change in living standards as a result of the Bolsheviks seizing power and implementing numerous social and economic reforms.

i think 15-20 is a good ballpark

@Deleted User Well that explains it then.

and after famines

it was about 30m soviets that died in the war, no?

mostly civilians.

so that's still 30m unaccounted for, but there were food shortages immediately after the war as well iirc

@mcstubbs I am unsure, WW2 info especially from the soviet union is hardly trustworthy at all, because the soviets were infamous for lying, and forging documents.

oh yeah.

the germans were too, which makes the eastern front a CLUSTERFUCK

If I remember correctly, the soviet union also claimed that there was zero starvation......in the 1930's.

yeah.

and this is coming from somebody who likes studying the eastern front a lot.

@mcstubbs Germans? Ehh, not really.

i know that a lot of SS units greatly exaggerated kill counts

@mcstubbs Like on the russian front?

and a lot of immediate postwar memoirs available in the us were written by german generals acquitted of warcrimes

yep.

@mcstubbs 20 mil was an official statistic formulated after the war, but a number of scholars have actually claimed that number isn't correct as it didn't accurately identify all those that actually died nor did it account for the missing POW's/MIA service members. Some say it may have been as many as 40 mil.

and the us bought into it because heck, we thought we were gonna be fightin' the commies next and we needed to know how they worked

yeah, i believe it. soviet documents are a clusterfuck

@mcstubbs Ehh, sounds more like banter and big talk, it is hard to say for certain, but it certainly dosen't match up with fucking removing people from history, forging historical documents, and outright lying.

@mcstubbs And, what do you mean about the german post war memoirs?

oh yeah, i just meant from a standpoint of analyzing casualty counts and the like

well, a lot of western understanding of the eastern front comes from these memoirs, which tend to paint wehrmacht actions in a very positive light compared to the soviets.

also

fun game

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration

check out the casualty counts in this article. none of the historians can agree.

this was one of the largest army operations in the whole war

and documents are *shit*

@mcstubbs The whermact really didn't have much belief backing their operations as opposed to the SS, they were more like the general military than anything, while the SS were the paramilitary wing of the nazi party, and also had an offensive wing which involved itself in every war nazi germany was in, the SS who weren't waffen on the offensive were guards.

yeah, the SS were definitely more politically driven than the wehrmacht heer

Some of the whermact actually attempted to have hitler assassinated several times, none succeeding.

So it makes sense why they would be acquited.

valkyrie being the most famous and close to success IIRC

there was some compliance in war crimes though

manstein, for example, was a pretty dedicated nazi

the army helped round up Jews for the concentration camps and the various decrees made by Hitler that 'allowed' the German military to 'legally' commit war crimes.

They sounded committed enough to natsoc ideology to me

most historians agree actually

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left I think the SS actually played the biggest role in that.

the wehrmacht were definitely compliant

But then again, most details around the holocaust are foggy, and conflicting.

@Deleted User https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

Okay?

The Wehrmacht is recognized by every reputable historian as a perpetrator of genocide.

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left And?

What do historians matter to me?

That's a good question

And are you going to continue with that comment?

I don't know what you think

i just got 11 ground kills in an il-2 on korea on war thunder without so much as seeing an enemy aircraft.

ama.

What I am stating is that I don't care about some historians who claim that what they think is unquestionabale, and anybody who does question their beliefs is automatically wrong.

i don't think they're being dogmatic about it

I wasn't stating it literally like that.

i think they're basically putting it out there that nobody was clean

especially not within the german ranks

And what I think is that they are talking from a prospective of authority and do not allow for questioning of their beliefs to happen.

But I think you are misunderstanding me.

>nazis dindu nuffin

He could've saved time and started with this

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Like you don't have an ungodly amount of freetime that you woulden't have spent on discord regardless of this situation.

i mean, if they wanted to do that then they could have gone with something that was a bit safer

@mcstubbs Can you elaborate?

if anything, the clean wehrmacht archetype is easier to stomach

@Deleted User My job is pretty good

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Okay.

Anways

@mcstubbs That's not really an elaboration.

Go on you're going to deny the Holocaust next?

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Hmm? Oh there was a purge in germany, but not on the scale you think it was, around 500K people died, but they were traitors of the german state who should have been purged regardless, the claim about death camps often comes with false or non existant evidence, as well as that, most of the deaths actually came from the allies cutting off supplies to the camps, which led to disease and starvation within them.

@Deleted User So all those parents just ran away and no one heard about them ?

Is this a realistic fantasy? To claim that millions lie the same lies?

Hitler did not believe that all other races should have been liquidated, but that they should all be separated, this goes for the jews as well.

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Who's parents? What millions of lies?

@Deleted User The victims of the Holocaust

Millions of survivors? I thought that there were only a few.....

A lot of them had family members did their parents just magically disappear?

You tell me, what do you think happened to them?

Lmao It goes against all evidence

What evidence?

Did anybody ever tell you that witness testimony is the weakest form of evidence?

*millions of witnesses*

*weak evidence*

Or that it isn't trustoworthy when the claims conflict?

Millions of witnesses?

I thought there were only a few.

Please, show me those millions.

Oh wait you can't......

Please, if you are going to make an outrageous claim like that, there would have at least been a common consensus that there were millions of so called survivors.

i mean, the photographs help

also, sry for not responding

war thunder

>the nazis dindu nuffin

>my evidence is

@mcstubbs Oh you mean the photographs that the soviets gave to be nice, and defineatly weren't from the same people who editted photo's to add/remove things or people inside it?

>????/

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left You got any evidence?

i mean, the western allies also took photographs.

they found camps too.

@mcstubbs Oh you mean from the red cross who claimed that 500K died?

i';m ordering pizza

from dominoes

does anybody want some

can you send some to texas

yeah man

thanks

@🖤 Limeboo 🖤 I think it will be cold by the time you send me some.

m u t u a l a i d

*sobs*

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left As expected.

eichmann also admitted to the whole thing, didn't he?

Anyways, I am going to get off now, 1 AM, getting later in the night, need to get some good sleep.

Holocaust denial is something that shouldn't even be debated

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Oh, because it is above questioning?

For the same reason you don't debate creationism

How hypocritical, from the same people who question whether or not stalin did genocide people, you will state that the holocaust 8a above questioning.

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left How do yoy know earth and life weren't created by god?

well, i don't think it's above questioning

but i do think that it happened

i think there's a good amount of evidence to support that

@mcstubbs And I believe that the evidence is false, fabricated, or non existant at all.

well, i think you're incorrect in that assumption

*everyone else is wrong*

i think the wealth of information available points in the direction that the holocaust did indeed happen and that there's not much evidence that it didn't

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left The thing is that you don't really know, but because the common consensus is that it did/didn't happen and dosen't conflict with your belief, you believe that it is above questioning, and anybody who does question it is automatically wrong.

@mcstubbs You got any to show me?

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left When did I claim everybody else was wrong?

ya'll read mark fisher

@🖤 Limeboo 🖤 Sounds like a faggot.

https://www.fold3.com/title/622/wwii-german-documents-among-war-crimes-records

don't bully he was a good lad

there's some good stuff in here

the eichmann trials are good

the nuremberg trials in general are good

p-please read mark fisher

@Deleted User you are not playing by the rules of historical evidence or even logic

Why would anyone bother?

@mcstubbs

huh, didn't show that on desktop

sorry about that

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left I don't give a damn, I am not required to follow your rules to please you.

@Deleted User So you're not interested in a debate?

@mcstubbs Any evidence that dosen't have me sign up for a fishy website?

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left Funny coming from the guy who claimed that the holocaust is above questioning.

@Deleted User Because there's no evidence to even start a debate

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left I don't see any from you

i mean, transcriptions of the eichmann trials, the eichmann interrogations and the nuremberg trials are widely available

*Google searching intensifes*

@mcstubbs Yhea, it isn't like they were coercied or threatened into confessing or anything.

i mean, from what i can gather, a lot of them weren't

@mcstubbs How would you know?

all of them weren't, from what i can tell

How would you know?

well, i remember reading a while back (i'll have to dig it up) that the american and british investigators didn't for one quite simple reason

they needed the trials to be legitimate

the needed to set a precedent for war crimes trials because nothing like it had really been pulled off before

@mcstubbs And how do you know they didn't do it behind the scenes and off the record?

(What a citation that is, by the way.)

if we couldn't hide a couple of guys breaking into the watergate hotel, how would we manage to pull that off

i think at some point, occam's razor has to come into play here

there's either a massive judeo-bolshevist conspiracy that's infiltrated the ranks of every major power on the fact of the earth and interrogated former nazis and fabricated a holocaust and nobody found out, and these jewish communists were also vehemently opposed to the USSR...

@mcstubbs That was a breakin at the democratic headquarters, this is corruption on a massive level, watergate was crime that was ordered by a big person, while the trials could have had corruption on a massive level during interrogations, and nobody would have known if it did or didn't happen.

Have you ever heard the term "history is written by the victors"?

It is exactly like this.

...or maybe this far-right ultranationalist fascist organization that spouted inflammatory rhetoric about how jews and communists needed to be purged, and formulated *Generalplan Ost* to provide lebensraum for the aryan race, *actually went through with it*

or at least attempted to

@mcstubbs What? Do you know what lebensraum was?

No, you don't, do you?

from my understanding, it was a form of settler colonialism where the nazis believed in taking lands in eastern europe and giving them back to aryans

even if that's an incorrect definition, generalplan ost was very real

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/GPO/gpo%20sources.htm

@mcstubbs Nope, not at all, if hitler wanted that, he woulden't have allowed hungary to exist, he woulden't have set up slovakia, and he defineatly woulden't have planned to reorganize the russian state under a new government, what hitler wanted was for germany to regain it's former borders and colonial territories, lebenshraum was the policy of protecting german interests, and what better plan to do that, than invading the biggest aggressor next to them? Hitler never wanted the german ethnicity to dominate all of europe, he planned on setting up nations by their race and ethnicity, if he didn't want to do that, then he woulden't have had meetings with muslim nationalists, he woulden't have set up slovakia for the slovaks, and he defineatly woulden't have set up vichy france.

i never said german, i said aryan. racially, he considered the slovaks, the french and the hungarians superior. I believe he met with muslim and hindu nationalists to royally (pun intended) fuck the british.

Here is a document on that too.

@mcstubbs Which means that he never did lebenshraum for extermination of other races, did he?

then what in sam hell was generalplan ost?

@mcstubbs It was the purging of traitors from germany but that's about it, which is why he had them rounded up and sent to camps, in which they later died in due to allies cutting off supplies.

Hitler always believed that races should have their own states, and there never should be any total extermination of a race.

That even goes for jews and blacks.

(Funnily enough he allowed for black divisions to exist in germany, and he even had an asian general.)

What was the warsaw ghetto, then?

Separation of races, what did I tell you hitler wanted?

then why are there so many accounts of the summary executions of jewish civilians or just civilians in general? And i know you're going to say that eyewitness testimony isn't very good, but what about when it's on the scale of millions?

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/GPO/gpo%20sources.htm

what are these?

@mcstubbs What millions of witnesses?

https://www.ushmm.org/remember/the-holocaust-survivors-and-victims-resource-center/survivors-and-victims/survivor-testimonies

you can find interviews of holocaust survivors quite easily

@mcstubbs I don't know why this is all coming second hand, or why they have to use a very specific version of mein kampf which was editted by a corporation in new york....

if you keep deeming my evidence as falsified, and i find it reliable, i don't think either of us are going to convince eachother, my man.

@mcstubbs Wait, I thought auschwitz was a death camp, how did so many people get out? Especially in the soviet control zone?

i really don't think this is all that productive for either of us at this point.

i don't mean to sound like i'm admitting defeat or that i don't enjoy this debate

but i've been up since 5:30 and it's about 1:30 right now over here

gas the pigs

class war now

@mcstubbs Well dosen't it raise suspicions that all of this comes second hand and you just have to believe it the way you see it? And I don't remember seeing those quotes from mein kampf, and I read the 3rd reich approved english translated edition.

Oh okay, go on ahead then.

night, comrades

@When Things Aren't Right Go Left My favorite season is the **endless soviet winter**

my favorite season is spring, because it's the ONLY GODDAMN SEASON WHERE THE GRASS ISN'T DEAD IN NORTH TEXAS

anyways, see you guys later

@Deleted User *deep regret*

"Mr. Gorbachev, I don't feel so good..."

@Deleted User Che was executed via shot in the forehead

@Deleted User and notice what I said

"if I could" pretty sure I could kill a 90 year old commie with my bare hands

now fuck off you Tostestoron free faggot

also "Christ like death" lmao.
he was hiding in the battlefield while his so called comrades where dying.
then he got cought by the Bolivian army.
his last word were:
don't shoot! I am the che you are looking for! I'll be worth to you more alive then dead!"

they shot him in the leg so he can't run

then took him out of the battlefield and shot him 2 times in the lungs. one time in the throat and then shot in the head

also here's a few quotes from your saint

“We executed many people by firing squad without knowing if they were fully guilty. At times, the Revolution cannot stop to conduct much investigation.”

“I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain. . . . His belongings were now mine.” (I’m always reminded of this one when I think of all of Che’s worldly possession being taken by his executioner).

“I’d like to confess, Papa, at that moment I discovered that I really like killing.”

“We must eliminate all newspapers; we cannot make a revolution with free press.”

happy birthday karl marx

i love you

J

nice

everything is fine except it says IM 6.4% NATIONALIST

FUCK YOU