By the way, SJW are now going after white gays. They claim white gays are even more misogynist than straight guys.

Do SJWs even read Marx?

They don’t have anything to do with Marx.

According to their definition, Marx is a "class reductionist" because he sees the root of almost all problems in class struggle.

But that's the correct analysis, not one based on feelings.

SJW, on the other hand, believe that white people invented class struggle to distract from issues non-whites face.

Jesus Christ.

Whenever you bring up class war in such groups, you get kicked out immediately, unless you repent.

It’s a fanatic religious cult.

I have met a lot of 'white male' reactionaries because of this.

I wouldn’t call myself a reactionary but I realise that, when I’m pissed, I resemble more a tankie than a moderate.

Statistically, there is a subsection of white males who are oppressed too, but because they do not have a convenient social marker like skin colour or sex they get ignored.

I have also met some MGTOW like this. Who on all objective measures have got a really bad deal from society.

Such US people have absolutely no idea about the tribal nature of Europe, Africa, and Asia.

There is no white unity in Europe, there is no black unity in Africa, and there is certainly not an Asian unity in Asia, the most diverse continents.

Race seems mainly an US phenomena.

Germans, for example, first identify with their local area, then the state, then somewhere the country.

Americanism and Americocentrism is a disease. No offense.

The Great Satan.

I’m an East Berliner, then a Berliner, than an East German, and then German. And as long as Germany has discriminatory laws and regulations against people living in East Germany including East Berlin, I won’t feel like an equal German. Additionally, any article that somehow mentions the East is filled with hateful comments against Easterners. This is actual systemic discrimination, but it doesn’t count because most of us are white.

Due to the newly arrivals, we have been lowered to 3rd class citizens.

I acknoledge tribalism comes naturally. I was a big advocate. But what comes naturally isn't always the best way, nor ought to be encouraged. That's the naturalistic fallacy.

Not surprising that East Germany is resisting the most.

Yeah I can see that happening.

I was dreaming of moving to Poland which was the third most favourite destination before PiS, the far-right party, rose to power.

The economical situation is bleak for ordinary Germans.

It is. It is obvious to be a move supported by big finance. Import new workers to load up with more debt. Lower the standard of living. Then invest more capital and profit from the rebuilding projects.

This is why I was a protectionist and a fascist.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/armut-und-reichtum/ezb-umfrage-deutsche-sind-die-aermsten-im-euroraum-12142944.html

Little did I realise the greater picture at play. It can be difficult to see past your own problems.

The graphic explained:
In 2010, German households had the lowest net median wealth of the Euro zone.
Graphic:
First section is about the distribution of wealth (in thousand euros per household): middle blue = average, red = median
Second section: light blue = amount of house owners
Third section is about the pre-tax income (in thousand euros per household): 1) median income, 2) average income

Your name implies you read German but I suspect you don’t. Fortunately, Facebook now has a search function for timelines.

I read a little. I am trying to improve.

The embarassment of a Wehrmacht fanboy.

Foreigners always assume Germans are filthy rich. Some pseudo refugees already went back when they realised they don’t get a house, a car, and a well paying job immediately.

When right-wingers attack a refugee home, they do it before people move in to make sure nobody moves in.

The median wealth in Germany is half that of the European average, am I reading that correctly?!

Most attacks on refugee homes from the stats are in fact performed by refugees for various reasons, for example when the pudding isn’t so tasty or the wifi signal is bad. I’m not kidding, in both cases the refugee homes were ruined.

@Deleted User , in 2010. It’s getting worse and worse.

What are your politics?

Over a decade ago the so-called Social Democrats implemented their Agenda 2010 which could have been written by Margaret Thatcher.

@Deleted User , you as in mine?

Are you a Socialist?

I’m a transhumanist communist: I want communism to reign over the whole planet, so that we won’t waste resources on superfluous struggles anymore and can put them all into scientific advancement.

Why specificially transhumanism? Scientific Advancement can come from unexpected place

s

I’m particularly excited that progress is made in the field of computer tech which will, hopefully, eventually be made completely of biological compounds which will make it far easier to merge with technology.

I agree that the human form is not sacred.

It’s flawed on many levels.

I read is historical materialism that "Social progress is driven by progress in the material, productive forces a society has at its disposal"

Productive forces including technology

Indeed, most can be automated, performed by machines.

In the USA, for example, there is already a law firm that wants to handle many lawyer’s tasks by bots which will reduce the costs tremendously.

It stands to reason that the more humans are like technology, the faster the social progress.

Also, the case of the AI working together who have created an own computer language to facilitate communication amongst them.

Capitalism hols us back because people must be kept worrying about how to survive everyday.

@Tenta he likes the idea of stressing people.

Yes, because under capitalism society has less productive forces overall, as they are collected by the ruling class only.

@Firefly , whom do you mean?

@Tenta your new fascist friend.

That is? Maybe I’m a bit slow now. I don’t feel stressed right now.

Fast transformation can be stressful.

See

I like fast. It was predetermined.

And why should I feel stressed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyO_-oDtvGU German song praising Lenin as the great moderniser of technology and society.

Wow, that’s a cute version, and even with an English translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEZJXI-IQS4

When the Quantitative change is predictable, Qualitative change is stressful. If you don't think it is, then the Quality isn't changing enough.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm

The 'you' of yesterday is not the 'you' of today or tomorrow.

@Tenta What do you think? Should change come faster or slower, or it doesn't matter?

Right now, nearly every advance is exploited under capitalism and poses new hardships on people.

"the process of development from the lower to the higher takes place not as a harmonious unfolding of phenomena, but ...as a "struggle" of opposite tendencies which operate on the basis of these contradictions."

Wew

It is interesting the use of 'lower' and 'higher' development. Does lower always move into higher?

@Tenta And then "When a given style of production relations no longer supports further progress in the productive forces, either further progress is strangled, or 'revolution' must occur."?

Stagnation or revolution.

Does anyone know if 'Fundamentals of Marxism-Leninism'
by Otto Kuusinen is avaliable to read online?

Is it Party-approved material?

"Hence, the transition from capitalism to socialism and the liberation of the working class from the yoke of capitalism cannot be effected by slow changes, by reforms, but only by a qualitative change of the capitalist system, by revolution."

Based Stalin.

"the spiritual life of society is a reflection of this objective reality" Therefore the easier it is to imagine revolution the closer it is in reality

Why don't you read Anti-During?

@Deleted User

Its one of the best intro. Better than manifesto I think

@everyone invite more people to this channel https://discord.gg/9sJ5QUJ

Share the link with friends and random networks.

CAn i bring a bunch of hard core anti-disestablishment pipe hittin niggas i konw from atlanta

@OF-8 , why not? Just give them the link above.

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

Welcome, newcomers!

Что-то не густо активности. Придется распиарить канал.

Еще человек 20-30 онлайна нужно, как минимум

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

we need arrivals channel

Why? ^__^

@Ladle It is unrestricted channel. You don't need even to register

any anonymous can join and participate

okay

Do we have a good introductory reading list for Marxism?

@Deleted User we have many of them. What would you like to read about?

Marxism. <:caring:312066184948350976>

Thats too great of a topic. Can you specify your interest?

How do I serve the anti-imperialism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Left-Wing%22_Communism:_An_Infantile_Disorder

@Deleted User the first book had a huge influence on Fidel Castro and many many other leaders.

Castro and Mao did the revolution after reading.

Must be good

Thanks for narrowing down. I prefer to read little and understand a lot, than read a lot and understand little.

Yeh, I remember Hitler writing that

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

Welcome to /leftypol/ a low-moderation channel. Feel yourself free here.

@OF-8 welcome to politically incorrect!

`oh hy

Yeet

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@Firefly
Social justice can actually be a poison to communism?

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@.... SJW are the main reason we don't have a powerful party.

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Hi kids.

Interesting new approach. The last people I've seen argue in that way have been Sargon of Akkad and George Orwell.

@John Doe welcome to our community.

Ty

@.... don't forget Lenin, yes?

IGP Represent

@Firefly
Aside from the politically active advocates who contributed significantly to numerous economic Revolutions throughout the world.

SJWs are pretty insignificant.

They're an obvious group, but it's been a long time since I've last seen conflict between Leftists and Communists.

@John Doe
True dat

Microaggressions are literally nothing in comparison to issues that affect the very economic foundation of society.

@Firefly Mao Zedong, good or bad?

@.... we evolve into authoritarian and anti-authoritarian branches, obviously. Time to part away from childish abominations.

@Firefly
So it's not just libertarian fascism that's accumulating on the Right to push forward an effective political strategy.

@Deleted User Mao didn't know much about theory, but maintained few correct lines and policies. Like anti-revisionism and anti-opportunism. But failed in many at the same time. I support Mao, but with a lot of but.

the fact that those two words even exist together shows how fucked up it is @....

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@Ladifour he is libertarian.

@Ladifour
Well, it's essentially property rights on steroids.

No, acid more like.

Haha

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@.... I agree. I think "microagressions" are a perfect example of how the left has gone from helping disenfranchised groups advance to using shame/guilt tactics (which ironically means they focus on the whites/straights/males rather than the groups they are supposed to be helping advance).

@Santa Claauz
I believe we'd actually make more progress on debating real issues if we just got rid of these trivial degenerates from the platform first.

Do you believe there is a difference between how the old left saw advancement of minority groups and the new "idpol"

Or is any focus on a group besides the working class just a form of idpol

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hey comrades

@Santa Claauz
I've noticed that there has been in fact a change. It used to be that the Left debated over the economic and moral efficacy of exclusive property claims. Now it's been hijacked by entitled edgy wannabe narcissists who care about nothing more than their ego and self-gratification.

@not_matt Welcome to our community!

thx =- )

@Santa Claauz any leftist who doesn't do economics is a fake fuck

idpol focus isn't leftism

its a social power play.

@not_matt
Preach!

@.... I think we all agree about that end.

But I'm curious what people here think about minority rights movements.

I've noticed there's a growing NazBol movement going on here which makes me curious as to the line between nationalism and "idpol"

(the flip side to that is any leftist who isn't inter sectional in opposing oppression is also wrong)

nationalism is right idpol

@not_matt that's the exact balance I'm trying to get at ^^^

Nazbol isn't growing it's a joke.

Because "NazBol Gang" sounds hilarious. Even just phonetically.

Like, the Sharks, the Jets, the NazBol Gang... WATCH OUT!

well here's my take. liberation is primarily an economic, material endeavor. if people are stolen from by capitalists, they are oppressed- full stop. if they are also encumbered by racial, gender, or sexuality bias, they are oppressed in an additional manner. but to liberate the blacks, gays, women, trans, etc, you FIRST have to free them from capitalist exploitation, because that includes ALL of them, not just one individual group.

@Santa Claauz
Well this is a very diverse group. Not sure if you were told this yet, but I'm an anarcho-capitalist actually, so my approach, means, and end might differ altogether.

But with that being said, to the extent of my knowledge I am convinced that the whole minority rights movement is completely bogus in this age and even deliberately skewed against white people. More specifically, white males. This is coming from a Filipino American citizen, and I haven't seen any level of favoritism on the basis of race anywhere in the US...with the exception of blacks and Hispanics.

i'd disagree with it being "deliberately" skewed

@not_matt
Well you got affirmative action.

but porky uses that racial anger and pits working class against working class

i mean, affirmative action wouldn't be necessary if schools were funded equally instead of by property taxes.

@not_matt
I'm probably going to make a thread about this but basically I've noticed that my own community (very small minority) focuses a lot on "educating people about our culture" which in effect has been a bunch of bitching to white people about the discrimination we face.

In my view there is a difference between this (idpol) and still taking active measures against discrimination. @not_matt

@not_matt DUDE EXACTLY. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE MISSES ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

thats an example of porky pointing racial anger in a direction where it serves as economic oppression

WE NEED AFF ACTION vs AFF ACTION IS REVERSE RACIST instead of hey lets educate everyone equally instead of based on where they grow up

@Santa Claauz
Well, this _is_ where my ethics diverge altogether, since I advocate exclusive claims.

when ur school is worse based on growing up in a poor area, you get cyclical poverty 🆒

@Santa Claauz "Or is any focus on a group besides the working class just a form of idpol" This. At best it focuses on a subset of class opression, which might be useful, but at risk of focussing on the effects not the cause, which can also be counterproductive.

@not_matt
Ah, I just had a discussion with my commie friend a while back on the Poverty Cycle.

@not_matt but basically the point I'm trying to make us that I believe there is a difference between what my community does (bitching about discrimination to white people and blabbing on about how tough we have it) and what I believe we should do (taking active measures to build our OWN community in order to actually fight discrimination.

@Deleted User

What's your take on this? Isn't there a difference? Or are both idpol

well i agree

Ah, but racism can be philosophical. Interpersonal racism definitely seems to correspond with poverty and porky propaganda, but there's also simply having a racist belief system.

bitching about discrimination is defeatist in a way

highlighting oppression, if the oppression in question concerns it in all forms, can't be a bad thing.... but community building is better

actively fighting >>>> bitching as well no matter what

^^^ I feel like that's all we do. I know it's important to highlight oppression especially when so many of us have been victims of hate crimes. But I just don't feel like it's productive to just complain about it.

@not_matt however there is an argument that even that community building and active fighting against discrimination is a form of idpol and we should forget about it and focus on class. What do you think?

i disagree with "anything other than class is idpol"

we fight against oppression. that's the whole thing imo

idpol is bad as a distraction. its bad if its obfuscating class. but we also have to recognize that blacks were the ones who were the economic class of slaves. they are currently the ones disproportionately thrown into private prisons to do fucking slave labor

^^^ really good way of putting it

thx comrade

However a lot of people here do say that anything other than class is idpol and I'm curious about what they think

Those people are shits.

And dumb.

Lol

(crowd cheers loudly)

facts

those people ignore oppression. people who only idpol or engage in essentialist bullshit ignore oppression. fuck em

@Santa Claauz If you wanted to take idpol to the extreme, every individual is a separate identity. The oppression they experience is specific to them. But this oppression is measurable, scientifically, objectively, not subjectively. The focus of idpol on the subjective experience is where it fails. To temptation to classify individuals together is a subjective trick. In reality everything is material, specifically, according to the proximity to the means of production, which is why only this analysis matters. Idpol is at best spinning tires while it does not address this.

So what would you say to the point that @not_matt brought up about blacks being the main victims of for profit prisons and such

Focussing on 'blackness' is only useful in statistical analysis. Action based on this subset is arbitrarily.

can you rephrase that, im not quite sure i get you

I think this is probably true. But I think I'd agree with Zielwhatsit if he's saying black people should be included and assisted along class lines rather than pitied along race ones.

if you are saying that, zielgerat, i'd agree. we have more in common than we don't regardless

I agree as well. But I think it's important to at least recognize that it's no coincidence that the main victims of private prisons are Black

Yes.

Realizing that reality allows us to examine and learn from the socioeconomic conditions that led to such a thing.

As an arbitrary group, yes. But why is Blackness so special? Why not birth date etc.?

Because they've been singled out and alienated as a group to the benefit of porkies.

Ignoring that reality leaves us in the same position as the Rightwingers (with our fingers in our ears)

Speaking of birthdate, though - ageism is a legit issue that's underaddressed in my opinion. But it's getting deeper down the rabbithole, too.

Can you imagine an analysis on the most oppressed birthday? You could also say they are 'singled our and alienated'.

@Deleted User do you believe people born in October are disproportionately imprisoned?

Is there any historical or social precedent for that, Ziel?

They're not. But blacks are. That's the difference.

Plugging our ears to this fact leaves us as blind and deaf as the Rightwingers

@John Doe Intention is not a predictor of result.

What if both are present?

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Like if I want to go and rob somebody and then I do it, isn't there a connection?

Sup niggas

Ey Bat'ko.

@Santa Claauz I am not 'plugging my ears'. I am accepted it as true. But I am saying there is nothing special about this subgroup. Out there, somewhere in the world, is a person or group arbitarily sleceted, that is more oppressed than any other. With enough data you could find it. But then what?

Stop it, fight poverty, spread lit.

Have you every played wack-a-mole?

@Bat'ko welcome, brother!

It's not easy, from what I understand.

The difference is that blacks exist as an actual community with an actual history not an arbitrarily selected coincidence.

@Santa Claauz Only subjectively.

But the existence of the interactions isn't subjective.

Agreed @John Doe

In other news has anyone read The Green Book or is in anyway familiar with the philosophy of Gaddafi's Libya (the Jamahiriya)

I can't believe it but I'm actually beginning to align with his ideas (even though I thought I was so unique lol).

@John Doe Playing wack-a-mole, you are predetermined to lose. You need a wider strategy than hitting one mole at a time. Or even several. The whole is greater than the sum of parts.

@Santa Claauz libya was the poorest country when gaddafi took over, and africa's richest country when he left....

"left" lmao

@John Doe And the framing of these interaction is arbitrary.

@Santa Claauz Kaddafi theory is syndicalism, muslim religion and social-democracy. Kaddafi surely been a great comrade and a leader of the left. But look at the results of his theory! He got crushed by Imperialism in the end.

@not_matt I know right! But I'm just so shocked to find a political system that basically fits exactly with me!

@Firefly yes but so do all. He lasted longer than most.

Even down to his views on women and the family it feels like I could've written the green book

@Santa Claauz Mao, Stalin and Lenin did a much better job. I can say Kaddafi did an exceptional job for African continent.

And he died trying to create an independent future for Africa. A true hero.

JAMAHIRIYA FLAIR WHEN

@Santa Claauz I agreeб https://youtu.be/tWQSR2fGK8U

defending mao and stalin?

tankies are ahistorical

we can learn from their clear and obvious mistakes

also lenin should've read marx

*hot takes incoming*

Is Colonel Gaddafi considered a tankie? He was somewhat authoritarian but not really a Marx-Leninist.

@not_matt Is Fidel Considered a tankei, Che?

sounds pretty *reactionary*