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Discord ID: 507035890640486411


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By that logic fascism is about fashion

2019-01-31 18:18:21 UTC

@The Big Oof Fair enough, but would you not agree that the state does end up being the controller whether in the hands of a collective or just the govt doing it in the name of people

2019-01-31 18:18:34 UTC
2019-01-31 18:18:45 UTC

@(((El Gringo Narigรณn))) Socialism has never been achieved, but that says more about it being a shitty economic system

2019-01-31 18:18:48 UTC

@The Big Oof BTW I just realized I'm a retard -- there's such a thing as libertarian socialism

2019-01-31 18:18:54 UTC

so I'm sorry, you're right

I can list so many countries

2019-01-31 18:19:04 UTC

Thank you

2019-01-31 18:19:06 UTC

name a few.

2019-01-31 18:19:14 UTC

he will name Peronist argentina

-Niger
-Djibouti
-Sudan
-Algeria
-Chad
-Bolivia
-Central African Republic
-Zimbabwe
-Angola
-Equatorial Guinea
-Ecuador
-Eritrea
-Suriname
-Republic of Congo
-Timor-Leste
-Cuba
-Togo
-Turkmenistan
-North Korea
-Mozambique
-USSR
-India
-China
-Somalia
-Haiti
-Swaziland
-Pakistan
-Bangladesh

2019-01-31 18:19:19 UTC

he thinks corporatism is socialism

All these countries were former or are

2019-01-31 18:19:39 UTC

@The Big Oof and yes, though I still maintain that it's because it's a shitty economic system beacuse of its direct contradiction of human nature.

2019-01-31 18:19:59 UTC

^

Mainly economic nature but

2019-01-31 18:20:06 UTC

Peronismo was a separate thing. It was, more than anything, a fusion of fascism and socialism into one. No one really knows wth it was

Libertarian socialism does not exist

2019-01-31 18:20:23 UTC

yes it does

2019-01-31 18:20:25 UTC

Peperonism*

2019-01-31 18:20:25 UTC

It doesn't exist, but the concept does

Peronism was fascism but fascism has socialism as it's economics alot of the time

2019-01-31 18:20:29 UTC

it's retarded but it does exist

2019-01-31 18:20:30 UTC

Socialism doesn't exist

2019-01-31 18:20:32 UTC

but the concept does

2019-01-31 18:20:34 UTC

@Kazimir Malevich best system

2019-01-31 18:20:45 UTC

Wasn't libertarianism coined by socialists?

Socialism is quite there in a few countries

2019-01-31 18:20:56 UTC

"It does actually"
"Actually, let me restate the meaning I've given a thousand time already, and not leave any room for debate"

2019-01-31 18:20:58 UTC

@Rex Carthaginis I don't think so

2019-01-31 18:21:03 UTC

You understand

2019-01-31 18:21:08 UTC

I'm pretty sure it was

There is no room for debate for my defintion, it's the truth.

2019-01-31 18:21:19 UTC

It was used as another word for anarchism

2019-01-31 18:21:20 UTC

@Rex Carthaginis I'd be curious to see a source

2019-01-31 18:21:32 UTC

I mean you may be right I'd just like to know for sure

2019-01-31 18:21:38 UTC

argument involves an aspect of compromise. If you want to argue your point, you leave room for yours to be challenged, even if you are sure it's correct. But you aren't @sษชแด…ษชsษดแดแด›สœแด‡ส€แด‡

You can challenge it all you want

2019-01-31 18:21:50 UTC

You are literally just saying

2019-01-31 18:21:56 UTC

I haven't, you just went in circles

2019-01-31 18:22:14 UTC

The line between trolling and serious political thought is blurred with every new member of this server.

But I had to go in circles, you're not understanding the basics

2019-01-31 18:22:36 UTC

actually, sorry, he used it in a different way @Rex Carthaginis

2019-01-31 18:22:40 UTC

nevermind

2019-01-31 18:22:41 UTC

@sษชแด…ษชsษดแดแด›สœแด‡ส€แด‡

Wrong. I gave you room to explain the issue with my definition, you refused to take it.

2019-01-31 18:22:50 UTC

No you didn't

2019-01-31 18:22:58 UTC

```The use of the word "libertarian" to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate, libertaire, coined in a letter French libertarian communist Joseph Dรฉjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[18][19][20]```

2019-01-31 18:23:12 UTC

@Rex Carthaginis okay yes it was, though the American Libertarian movement is very different

2019-01-31 18:23:19 UTC

it doesn't come from the same origin

2019-01-31 18:23:28 UTC

+poll Should I kick this guy?

2019-01-31 18:23:35 UTC

He's not here to be genuine

2019-01-31 18:23:38 UTC

I'll let you decide

2019-01-31 18:23:41 UTC

SIDISNOTHERE?
More like
SIDISACOMMIE

Wow nice way to dismiss my argument

2019-01-31 18:23:57 UTC

Your argument wasn't dismissed. You're arguing like a 5 year old.

2019-01-31 18:24:01 UTC

and I am done

I guess it's an easy way to dismiss my argument

don't want to take another verbal beating?

2019-01-31 18:24:30 UTC

Your argument wasn't dismissed, and nobody thinks it was

lowkey tryna kick me for it

2019-01-31 18:24:44 UTC

@The Big Oof The rules never said "no stupid people".

2019-01-31 18:24:50 UTC
2019-01-31 18:24:56 UTC

"try to kick me for it"
-quote from man kicked

2019-01-31 18:25:05 UTC

Good thing this is not a democracy

2019-01-31 18:25:18 UTC

but yeah, I agree. I think this guy's retarded. It's entertaining. Let him stay, I say.

2019-01-31 18:25:20 UTC

@sษชแด…ษชsษดแดแด›สœแด‡ส€แด‡

You're a walking example of the dunning kruger effect. Completely incapable of self reflection

2019-01-31 18:25:48 UTC

"It's not that I'm making retarded arguments and being an annoying fuck, you just lost!"

2019-01-31 18:25:53 UTC

Which is more likely?

Honestly I don't care what people on a server filled socialist say

ยฏ\_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

2019-01-31 18:26:13 UTC

You would be annoyed by a communist if he argued like you did, and you know it.

2019-01-31 18:26:22 UTC

You aren't looking at how you are arguing

2019-01-31 18:26:22 UTC

Dude, I'm a libertarian monarchist. I'm pretty much as far away from socialism as it's possible to be. I think you're retarded.

2019-01-31 18:26:27 UTC

It's not because everyone here is a socialist,.

2019-01-31 18:26:28 UTC

and why it's goddamn annoying

2019-01-31 18:26:42 UTC

You aren't arguing to convince, or even to learn

2019-01-31 18:26:46 UTC

you're arguing to boost your ego

2019-01-31 18:26:57 UTC

You aren't here for discussion, in other words

2019-01-31 18:27:24 UTC

@The Big Oof Though I'd argue there's nothing wrong with necessarily arguing to boost ego, as long as one does it well. It's more if someone does it badly that's the issue.

2019-01-31 18:27:25 UTC

Every chance I try to give you room to argue the two definitions, you run in circles

They would probably be annoyed by me, when they lose an argument

I told you why the defintion was correct

2019-01-31 18:27:53 UTC

nib, I'm closer to you politically that probably anyone else here. You lost. Get over it.

2019-01-31 18:27:56 UTC

You haven't lost the argument, and I know that the dunning kruger effect may have convinced you otherwise, but I don't feel like you've proved anything

2019-01-31 18:28:00 UTC

Nobody does

2019-01-31 18:28:04 UTC

I feel like I wasted my time

2019-01-31 18:28:14 UTC

Place your ego aside

2019-01-31 18:28:23 UTC

Do you really think you made a good argument here?

2019-01-31 18:29:06 UTC

Well, I don't, and I think you're retarded.

If I had nothing to say, and wanted to kick you for your views or for me not having an argument, I wouldn't haveopened the door for you to offer a challenge

2019-01-31 18:29:47 UTC

You don't argue like that in a semantical argument, especially

<:ohno:520006095125872641>

2019-01-31 18:29:56 UTC

Since it's literally about definitions

2019-01-31 18:30:08 UTC

Both participants

2019-01-31 18:30:12 UTC

think they have the correct one

2019-01-31 18:30:16 UTC

restating the same one over and ovr

2019-01-31 18:30:24 UTC

will get you nowhere other than pissing the other person off

2019-01-31 18:30:25 UTC

This is correct

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/507035890640486411/540599753457795072/opera_2019-01-31_16-29-49.png

2019-01-31 18:30:48 UTC

I will argue not so.

2019-01-31 18:30:48 UTC

But not for the reasons you stated

2019-01-31 18:31:00 UTC

Only in the marxist-leninist definition is it correct

2019-01-31 18:31:15 UTC

Socialism is seen as the transition from capitalism to communism

2019-01-31 18:31:20 UTC

Remove marxist-leninism

2019-01-31 18:31:22 UTC

And it makes no sense

Socialism has it's goals to abolish the market

2019-01-31 18:31:44 UTC

Market socialism?

2019-01-31 18:31:49 UTC

Not really

2019-01-31 18:32:05 UTC

i will argue the definition above is incorrect since it only makes sense under one version of socialism

2019-01-31 18:32:11 UTC

it doesn't exist, but the concept does

Marktet socialism is as real as libertarian socialism

it directly contradicts socialism

2019-01-31 18:32:33 UTC

That is the purpose of a semantical argument, we're literally... arguing definitions

2019-01-31 18:32:36 UTC

...but you just said

2019-01-31 18:32:41 UTC

state intervention is socialism

2019-01-31 18:32:42 UTC

so

2019-01-31 18:32:50 UTC

The USA has a market economy

2019-01-31 18:32:59 UTC

So is it market socialist?

No it's just a mixed economy

2019-01-31 18:33:47 UTC

So it has aspects of market socialism, a position I don't agree with, but it's the only one that makes sense

2019-01-31 18:34:01 UTC

according to this train of logic

2019-01-31 18:34:04 UTC

that you are putting forth

What exactly do you define as market socialism tho

Who do I contact to partner with

2019-01-31 18:35:28 UTC

let me put it this way. I am in favor of minarchism. Am I a socialist? @sษชแด…ษชsษดแดแด›สœแด‡ส€แด‡

where did you draw that conclusion from xD

@The Big Oof do I talk to you to partner with?

2019-01-31 18:39:35 UTC

okay at least you aren't as far gone as some voluntaryists I got into an argument with

2019-01-31 19:12:20 UTC

Let me put it this way. I'm a gamer. Am I a socialist? @sษชแด…ษชsษดแดแด›สœแด‡ส€แด‡

2019-01-31 19:14:13 UTC

Kaz is Gamerbol gang

2019-01-31 19:24:59 UTC

the earth is flat and there is a dome separating us from the waters above

2019-01-31 19:25:34 UTC

True.

2019-01-31 19:27:55 UTC

How was Peronist Argentina libertarian?

2019-01-31 19:29:03 UTC

Pincochet's Chile was communist

2019-01-31 19:30:15 UTC

Nah I donโ€™t find that convincing. Not to start up old shit but how would you define socialist mang?

2019-01-31 19:33:03 UTC

a state with divine providence

2019-01-31 19:35:44 UTC

A government.

2019-01-31 19:35:57 UTC

All government is commie.

2019-01-31 19:36:04 UTC

Except Trump, he's based.

2019-01-31 19:41:02 UTC

We say this jokingly

2019-01-31 19:42:18 UTC

But I swear to god some Austrians have a contest to justify something crazier every month

2019-01-31 19:54:08 UTC

I am pretty sure this fella is one of those Austrians.

2019-01-31 19:59:59 UTC

Trump is meh

2019-01-31 20:00:07 UTC

I agree.

2019-01-31 20:00:26 UTC

whomst deleted my words of wisdom?

2019-01-31 20:00:46 UTC

You have no n-word pass

2019-01-31 20:00:52 UTC

@serenity anything with the n word is deleted automatically

2019-01-31 20:00:56 UTC

gib me n-word pass

2019-01-31 20:01:10 UTC

No, only mods can have it

2019-01-31 20:01:21 UTC

gib me mod

2019-01-31 20:01:22 UTC

You can use any other variation though

2019-01-31 20:01:53 UTC

reeeeeeee

2019-01-31 20:01:55 UTC

N1gger

2019-01-31 20:02:01 UTC

niggger

2019-01-31 20:02:20 UTC

nignog

2019-01-31 20:02:43 UTC

At least trump isn't a mainstream centrist

2019-01-31 20:02:47 UTC

Call your local mailman a kneegger

2019-01-31 20:02:47 UTC

I guess

2019-01-31 20:03:25 UTC

trump is a mainstream nigggger

2019-01-31 20:03:46 UTC

But yeah if we want any real change in America were going to have to get rid of this system entirely

2019-01-31 20:03:58 UTC

It's not salvageable at this point

2019-01-31 20:04:10 UTC

real change in america will only come from nukes

Austrians are the new elite

The server I'm gonna partner this one with is based in Austria

2019-01-31 20:04:35 UTC

Edgy

2019-01-31 20:05:14 UTC

Anyways did I hear correctly that someone thought that corporatism was socialism

2019-01-31 20:13:25 UTC

2019-01-31 20:15:22 UTC

How in any way people come to the idea that America, one of the highest performing countries at nearly every level on the world stage, is a steaming wreck is beyond me

2019-01-31 20:16:12 UTC

It's not the economy or military

2019-01-31 20:16:22 UTC

It's the social aspects that are terrible

2019-01-31 20:17:09 UTC

Is there something in particular you had in mind?

2019-01-31 20:19:02 UTC

Mordor was the highest performing country of the Middle-Earth.

2019-01-31 20:19:11 UTC

It's just that its population wasn't too great.

2019-01-31 20:21:09 UTC

And when America spouts a big glowing evil eye over trump tower Iโ€™m happy to reassess

2019-01-31 20:21:16 UTC

Well, the dehumanizing and depressing effect of our current economic system in particular

2019-01-31 20:21:35 UTC

So whatโ€™s dehumanising?

2019-01-31 20:21:47 UTC

hello

2019-01-31 20:22:30 UTC

Also I do wanna carry on this convo but I also have work so if I drop out @Spookaswa could we return to this?

2019-01-31 20:22:41 UTC

Sure

2019-01-31 20:22:49 UTC

What are we talking about?

2019-01-31 20:22:52 UTC

Economics?

2019-01-31 20:24:23 UTC

Spook brought up that they felt the current economic system was dehumanising and I wanted to explore that

2019-01-31 20:24:42 UTC

I'd agree

2019-01-31 20:24:55 UTC

I think Capitalism as it's played out through history is incredibly dehumanizing.

2019-01-31 20:25:05 UTC

Money is the focal point, and nothing else.

2019-01-31 20:25:27 UTC

I'd like to see someone argue that it's not dehumanizing.

2019-01-31 20:30:36 UTC

Well, I think it might be possible to save the capitalist system with social democratic reforms, and if that doesn't work, then I guess the only other options we have are fascist corporatism and marxian socialism.

2019-01-31 20:30:42 UTC

I would disagree, I think capitalism is a toolset that allows people to work together to achieve their goals. I see money as being a store of social credit in that regard, but Iโ€™d like to have a discussion around that space and Iโ€™m open to ideas because I agree that there are things that need to be improved.

2019-01-31 20:31:00 UTC

How is it any more dehumanizing than any other ideology?

2019-01-31 20:31:23 UTC

Iโ€™ll need to take a rain check on that though as Iโ€™ve gotta go to work. Cheers for the discussion though all

2019-01-31 20:32:39 UTC

Well, to continue with the rest of you, I'd argue that from the beginning it was dehumanizing.

2019-01-31 20:33:10 UTC

No matter your opinions on feudalism, you had people ripped from country life, which was arguably not that bad for its time, and put into sweatshops.

2019-01-31 20:33:42 UTC

I'm not arguing we bring back all of feudalism, but it makes you think. Capitalism produced the sweatshops and made traditional living unsustainable.

2019-01-31 20:34:05 UTC

Capitalism is based on competition, thus making it the most brutal of the three major economic systems. Corporatism is like a mix of capitalism and socialism, it focuses more on class collaboration than competition, private firms are still allowed to exist but they must serve in the interest of the state. Socialism, once it evolves into communism, will have no classes to speak of, at least in theory.

2019-01-31 20:35:04 UTC

Corporatism is interesting, but there's been problems in the last hundred years with it not being very effective.

2019-01-31 20:35:09 UTC

I'm interested in distributism

2019-01-31 20:36:11 UTC

See, I don't hate private property. It's always existed and it should always exist. However, there was something we lost with Capitalism that we had in the middle ages.

2019-01-31 20:36:29 UTC

Fascist corporatism hasn't been used in the last 50 or so years.

2019-01-31 20:36:39 UTC

The closest we have gotten since then is social democracy

2019-01-31 20:37:18 UTC

Was it perfect? No of course not, but it was arguably better than capitalism.

2019-01-31 20:38:30 UTC

Arguably so

2019-01-31 20:40:28 UTC

I mean, I'm no economist, but people seemed happier before capitalism. Back then, people had private property, but it wasn't a cashgrab free for all. Standards for trade were a given, and you had guilds to moderate the skilled tradesmen. It was also less centralized, everthing was. You didn't have to worry about multi-national coporations controlling everything.

2019-01-31 20:41:30 UTC

What seems like a good option to me is the decentralization of distributism. We don't go for any kind of socialism, but we decentralize as much as we can. More local businesses, more co-ops, and more family owned small businesses.

2019-01-31 20:41:45 UTC

And when you need factories, they ought to be locally owned and controlled.

2019-01-31 20:41:48 UTC

Capitalism has never really been started, it was just labeled as such in the industrial period

2019-01-31 20:42:31 UTC

I think that's as silly as saying "Communism has never been tried." We know it hasn't been achieved, but it sure as Hell as been tried.

2019-01-31 20:43:00 UTC

Well then you didn't get what I said

2019-01-31 20:44:43 UTC

Well it seems like you're claiming we never had capitalism.

2019-01-31 20:44:49 UTC

Nope

2019-01-31 20:45:59 UTC

I'm saying it had no fixed start, you said people seemed happier before capitalism but when was that?

2019-01-31 20:46:48 UTC

What marks, to you, the start of capitalism?

2019-01-31 20:48:22 UTC

The Industrial revolution seems to be a vague start, but it's like the Renaissance, there's no hard start.

2019-01-31 20:49:39 UTC

I'd argue it started much earlier, around the 16th to 17th century, and banking clans can be traced back all the way to the 14th century

2019-01-31 20:49:58 UTC

But the industrial revolution was the beginning of the capitalism we know today

2019-01-31 20:50:32 UTC

Banks gay lol

2019-01-31 20:50:41 UTC

Seems plausible, although the banking isn't all of capitalism.

2019-01-31 20:51:24 UTC

Point is, it has played a part in destroying traditional society.

2019-01-31 20:51:31 UTC

Yes

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