The rate of divorce may decrease, but only because people will marry less

also i dont think alimony and child support in and of itself is an issue but i agree, custody and visitation reform should be tackled

How do you not think its an issue that you can be divorced at any time for any reason and because you're a man you will be forced to pay your ex wife by the state for the rest of your life?

Have you truly accepted this ridiculous situation as normal?

Well, the Greek faggots obviously managed since it is viewed as an example of high culture.

And no political party even cares enough to address this of course, they're all too busy focusing on censoring "hate speech"

snake, chill, i said reform should happen

im clearly not accepting it

But it won't, that's the point

@Krille P. I'm no defender of Heathen Culture but as I said, some of the men might have engaged in Degenerate behaviors outside the house, but they settled down and built families, had kids and raised them with their Wives.

also your wrong that no political party is talking about it, certainly its not a headline issue but its a present one

There is no mechanism to achieving it and currently the majority think this is normal and good

What party is seeking to reform divorce?

especially as a higher female workforce is a thing

theres discussion from both the democrats and republicans thats addressed it, no big moves as of yet but baby steps

a big stumbling block is the public image of mras which, yknow, thats fair

Could you give me an example?

A link?

The people care so much that they put his dysfunctional system into place and cheered it as a big step of progress

We are talking about a culture that 1) Supplied the Christian philosophers/theologians with fundamental concepts. Call it heathen all you want but there is no denying that the Greeks helped form Christianity in its early days. 2) Viewed the love between two males as more pure than between man-woman. I'm just courious abot what is meant as "decay" since it is often used by would-be despots with nothing but pure hatred of man in their hearts

```a big stumbling block is the public image of mras which, yknow, thats fair```


you do realize divorced women, women who have been abused in the past or raised in a broken home are highly likely to be Feminists.. and Feminists say things that are many many times worse than any MRA I've ever seen, and they do it in College Classes and on the TV..
The image of MRA's who might have gone through abuses themselves is quite different from Feminists is it not?

@Deleted User https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers%27_rights_movement_in_the_United_States

wikipedia i know

I'm not sure what your point is

my point is that reform has been passed incrementally already, ive raised reasons to believe that the impetus towards this isnt going away which you dont seem to object to, theres no reason to expect that it would not continue

@Krille P. You say "Greeks" as though they were a hivemind who did and believed in all the same things, as if all Greek Men were doing little boys in spare time. That is just faulty thinking..

As for Societal Decay and Degeneracy, it means all behavior that leads to the Destruction of that Society and Peoples.

You claimed that theres discussion from both the democrats and republicans thats addressed it but this article doesn't really prove this

I fail to see any reason to expect that it will suddenly reverse

bills have been passed as the article shows

What bill

```n Illinois, the following laws co-authored by Jeffery M. Leving were signed into law in 2009:

SB 1628, sponsored by Senator Iris Martinez and in the House by Representative Deborah Mell, accomplished two things: It amended the Paternity Act and other Acts to insure that both parties be informed to their right to DNA testing before paternity can be adjudicated either through a voluntary acknowledgment, court proceedings or by an administrative law judge. It also amended the visitation interference section of the Criminal Code and made it a criminal offense to deny the other parent their right to parenting time or custody time. Previously, only visitation interference was a crime. (Signed into law: August 11, 2009)

SB 1590, sponsored by Sen. Pamela Althoff and in the House by Rep. Sandra Pihos, and which passed unanimously, allows children and non-custodial parents to use electronic visitation technologies such as email, telephone, internet and video conferencing. Illinois became the sixth state to pass Virtual Visitation Legislation which could enable virtual visitation for incarcerated fathers. (Signed into law: August 11, 2009)

HB 4008, sponsored by Senate by Senator Martinez and Rep. Jehan Gordon, included the paternity provisions of SB 1628. It amended the Paternity Act to ensure that both parties would be clearly informed to their right to DNA testing before a voluntary acknowledgment of paternity is signed or a paternity order is entered. (Signed into law: August 14, 2009)

HB 2266, sponsored by Martinez and Rep. Ken Dunkin, amended the visitation interference section of the Criminal Code with the use of terms used in family cases today (i.e. parenting time and custody time). (Signed into law: August 25, 2009)```

None of this prevents the problems we've been discussing

It seems like a non sequitur

visitation was one of the issues we were discussing

none of these bills even discusses those issues

When did I discuss that?

I said men have to pay their ex wives

I also said men will fear financial ruin, marry less, and more kids will not have fathers

you did address custody as an issue

Yes I did

so when i show that incremental change has been made in reforming custody / visitation...

Such a non-response (the first part), I'm not saying that ever Greek man fucked boys but there was a definite cultural tendency towards homophilia in accient Greek. Pointing this out is by no means saying that Greeks all thinked or acted alike and is just a poorly thought out way for you to disregard the facts that what you might call societal decay might not be that.

Ah, so we can only tell if something is part of the societal decay after the fall of our civilization. Useful fucking term you've got there

What so now fathers who are being forced to work for their ex wives by the state get to visit every month?

Is this a victory?

>if i dont get everything i want then i havnt achieved anything
thats not how progress is made politically, snake, political change is implemented through incremental, realistic change

There is no pressure financial or electoral on politicians to Reform Family Law whilst there is opposite pressure to keep it all the same from a massive Feminist Lobby.
Y'all haven't even talked about that, pretending as of Politicians will talk about issues just because..

Look: the status quo is indefensible. It should be an affront to the conscience any person of good character right now.

i disagree and the feminist lobby is pretty divided in whether to support equity in divorce or no

You disagree?

What in my statement do you disagree with?

ive said repeatedly snake that the status quo should be reformed

Oh you mean you disagree with the status quo

das rite

It is disturbing that it is just an accepted part of society

I suppose any reform that moves in a better direction is a good thing

But I am not optimistic here

This extremely disturbing situation requires an extreme response, not a lukewarm incremental visitation bill

People of good character should demand change now, and reject this situation

This is not a minor issue. This is an issue that could unravel the structure of society over a few generations

i dont have the stats and i appreciate experience isnt a reliable indicator but people have talked to me about it and im not typically the one to bring it up and ive found that most people, including women feel theres a need to change

```Such a non-response (the first part), I'm not saying that ever Greek man fucked boys but there was a definite cultural tendency towards homophilia in accient Greek. Pointing this out is by no means saying that Greeks all thinked or acted alike and is just a poorly thought out way for you to disregard the facts that what you might call societal decay might not be that.```

@Krille P. You say *Greeks* were Hemophiliacs and then proceed to make the point certain Greek Philosophers played a part in formulation of Christianity as if surely they were Hemophiliacs or as if that had an impact on their contribution to Christianity...
As if Greeks contributing to Christianity justifies every single norm of the Non Christian Greek society that preceded Christianity which might be in direct contradiction. Again, Faulty Thinking.

```Ah, so we can only tell if something is part of the societal decay after the fall of our civilization. Useful fucking term you've got there```

And I'd like to introduce you to this concept among humans called Foresight. Humans are actually capable of thinking of the outcome of an act without actually performing that act.
So you can predict that if you jump from a 20 floor building you will end to dead without actually performing that act.

That's even more disturbing because it suggests that regular people find it morally reprehensible, but the state maintains it regardless

The state is thus uninterested in the concerns of citizens

i think theres always an issue in making headway in divorce though, which is the same i think plagues people in getting prenups which i think is vital, and thats people dont think it will happen to them

and tbf citizens arnt concerned overwhelmingly for as above

If left to their own devices people would not have this issue. The issue emerges due to state meddling

@Krille P. You are looking at elimination of all norms in a society if you have no Foresight. There can be no morality or law without it.

again, not sure about that, dysfunctional marriages and breakups have always been a problem and the state hasnt caused that.

If a married couple wants to split up they can, and they can come to some agreement about the kids. The one sided situation where the man's funds are seized is a result of the state using its power to force it

```again, not sure about that, dysfunctional marriages and breakups have always been a problem and the state hasnt caused that.```


The scales are different. That matters..

In fact, we've created a massive financial incentive for women to aggressively pursue divorce to get easy money

i agree and this is where feminists have actually come into bat because the laws governing this originally assumed that the man brought home the bacon and the woman enabled him and looked after the house and kids

Is it any wonder why divorce rates are so high? If you divorce you're guaranteed free money for life

Give me a break feminists created this hell

as that responsibility is being questioned many feminists are arguing for the assumptions carried in the way divorce is carried out

you cant seriously believe feminists are interested in improving things for fathers

and feminism isnt a monolith and i think their concerns in the regards of womens place being in the home as a neccessity was valid

that's a non sequitor

saying feminists did something "good" is just a diversion from the fact that they are responsible for this situation

Feminists might do it for egoistic ideological reasons, but to expect them to put any effort into this I think is misplaced hope..

hardly. there is no one "feminism" just as there isnt one "christianity" so pinning it all on "feminism" is too vague to be accurate.

I reject the notion that history is a path of constant progress in which people have more and more rights over time

fathers have less rights as do husbands than ever before

eh, the vikings had pretty shitty divorce standards for men

Not to mention children no longer enjoy the benefit of having a united father and mother

if there's nothing common between all Christians and Feminists, the terms become useless. Obviously that is not true.. so criticising feminism as a monolith is very much legitimate.

and single motherhood absolutely affects children you can see this statistically

this is a false dichotomy snake, happy families dont get divorced

so 50% of families aren't happy

and domestic violence also affects kids, more so than single parents

why is that a good thing?

it isnt, but it is a reality

Here's a thought: assault is a crime and if a man assaults a woman, he will be arrested

We are in this situation because women can divorce their husbands for any reason. They don't have to show that the husband assaulted them

right but if you are in an unhappy relationship and you are forced to stay there often the result is assault

@Gerçek That is a connection made purely made in your own head and is the product of some kind of wishful thinking. Denonucing an entire culture because they are "heathens" when your whole world-view is based on concepts tought out by individuals in this culture is just plain stupid. All the other shit you say about me claiming the homo side of Greek culture and concepst in Christianity is pure fabrication and a product of your imagination.

Foresight isn't something that is always right, nor does norms, laws and morality needs this. You'll have to produce some sort of proof for this. Also your analogy is so off, you can' compare something as complex as human society with that example (which also can be attributet to induction. A high fall = high movment speed = harder impact)

Often? Do you have statistics to back up that claim?

So what? Because marriage is hard and couples aren't always happy I guess kids don't get to have fathers anymore?

i dont on hand but i should think thats intuitive. if your stuck living with a person you hate there will likely be a punch on

this thinking that 100% of Divorces that ever happen are for legitimate reasons since the couple weren't *happy* at any given time assumes that things got better for them after they got Better.
Thats not even thinking of the children yet for whom divorce is almost never better... must divorces don't end up in Domestic Violence convictions even though the standards of evidence for these is below criminal threshold. @CronoSaturn

and kids get to have fathers who dont hit them

You make it sound like we have 2 options: either women are assaulted or kids don't have fathers

Exactly, the mother's sexual partners after a divorce are more likely to assault her and or her kids

Again, this isn't solved by no fault divorce, it's solved by making assault illegal...which it already is

@Gerçek im not predicating that assault precipitates all divorces but i dont think its unreasonable to think that if either party is forced to stay in a steadily deteriorating relationship, which you are clearly in if you are seeking a divorce, *someone* is very likely to become abusive

although i should clarify that girls are equally capable of filling that role

no they aren't. Theyre WAY more likely to

It's not even close

@Krille P. If you cannot predict an outcome with any level of certainty then why would you have any norm.
I'm not saying norms in all societies are always right, but they generally are better at putting out better outcomes in regards to Societal Sustainability than a society where everyone's bound to their whims without any direction.

More likely to assault their sexual partners and children

sure, in either case the relationship shouldnt be kept together just because of the kids because while i agree that the evidence shows that single parents are statistically less capable in providing the same outcomes for their kids, its far ahead of kids being raised in families where the environment is actively abusive

by allowing that relationship to end your cutting your losses

again, assault is already illegal and these people are arrested

none of this merits no fault divorce

this is a bait and switch, because some women are assaulted all women should be able to divorce and then suck funds from their ex husbands

Fathers are not expendable

Children are better off with fathers statistics prove this

@CronoSaturn

```@Gerçek im not predicating that assault precipitates all divorces but i dont think its unreasonable to think that if either party is forced to stay in a steadily deteriorating relationship, which you are clearly in if you are seeking a divorce, someone is very likely to become abusive```

I just don't see how you can be so confident in that every single case of divorce is legitimate since the alternative would always amount to violence not reconciliation, and that would be bad for the relationship.
I think you have the worst case scenario of a divorce in your head and you just think all of them are like that when they're not. A lot of Divorces are preventable, and there's no evidence to show that societies that don't allow Divorce at all are unsustainable.
Societies who are very Liberal with Divorce do appear to be Destructive.

so snake your suggesting the more positive outcome is we allow things to deteriorate to the point that someone has to be arrested and put in prison, in which case the child is raised in a single parent home, society has to pay to imprison that parent and they are no longer productive, just so you can be happy because you dont like divorce?

@Gerçek there are already significant measures to attempt reconciliation in the divorce process, if its unsuccessful and the person is still pushing for divorce it seems unrealistic that things can be patched up

Encouraging a culture where Marriage itself is seen as an Enterprise to create a Family and to raise kids i think is Healthy.
There are countless examples for people separating over the most selfish of reasons, "i want some change", "i wanted some space", entirely self serving without any regards to the Child i think is Toxic.

divorce is a lengthy and painful process where the person has to be pretty vehement and unco-operative towards looking at reconciliation, which also isnt really smiled on by the courts

Norms are not concsiously created for one part, and it does still not prove what you claim, norms are usually the result of necessity in an imediate situtaion and are often nothing more than a result of the material needs in the surrounding enviornment. People speculating about the resulut does not mean that they have any foresight. This is also the case of laws and morality, responses to imediate situations which we then makes a general law out of (the latter only applies to norms and morality as you can understand)

gercek its also unrealistic that the state can force people to care about their kids if they're so trivial as to purely want a divorce because they had a bad weekend

Im not talking about the State in any of this.

whatever measures the state could take to cure this are likely worse than the problem its trying to treat

thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though

It really isn't a separate conversation at all.. and the fact that there are people who think that these days tells you what the problem really is.

The issue with the rise in divorce rate is not just systemic but also Cultural.

I think I've said my piece. It's clear we won't see it the same way

Societies have gone to war over less

```thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though```


How does someone think that is honestly beyond me, you are thinking of children as separate from their parents. As if kids are detached from what goes on in the Family.
It's an absolutely bizarre way of thinking and calls into question the purpose of marriage and family building in the first place.

if a parent is going through a divorce proceeding without considering the kids clearly they consider themselves as seperate and i cant force my view onto them. I cant force people to be good parents and if they are determined in getting out i dont see any point in keeping a bad parent who hates being with their kids in that situation.

We live in a Society. @CronoSaturn

gamers rise up\

Yes you can. You can force people to change their behavior.

In fact they are doing that right now via financial incentives

People are divorcing more and marrying less.

i dont think its cost effective to try and pay people out to love their children and their are already significant financial incentives for marriage and kids

There's this thing called normative culture whereby people are able to remain within certain boundaries that ensure the survival of their Society and such that individuals live generally meaningful lives.
Now with his *you* don't have to *force* anybody.. a govt doesn't even come into the picture.
One important element of that is Family Building, and the societal shunning and shame associated with failure to do this, being Promiscuous or Unfaithful. We have slowly lost that in many important ways.. @CronoSaturn

I don't think it's cost effective for 50% of men who marry to pay alimony for life

which we agree on

and certainly people should be less slutty gercek

Here's a thought: punish people for bad behavior, and they will be less likely to do it. This is the basis of the justice system.

Punishment can actually include social shunning and shaming.

Psychological Punishment can be far more effective on several levels than Fines or some Jail time

Trying to fix marriage through material benefits in terms of more money to large extent I think are misguided.

Well, we used to use the law to support the traditional family, then we delegated most of the job to social pressure trusting that was sufficient to keep families intact, but now they've fucked the culture so bad that this broke down

Now both the state and the culture are untied against the family

I will agree with you on removal of the welfare state, child support benefits, community property laws, alimony etc

but to provide positive material benefits to families to stay together or have more kids is to misunderstand the problem to begin with

@Gerçek it doesn't have to be some draconian situation like if you are a bad wife we shoot you

The point is people respond to incentives be they financial or otherwise

We should set up society to promote and facilitate men and women forming long term partnerships and producing/raising children as a unit

i think by reforming divorce to be more equitable and a bit of a cultural swing as things normalise thats 90% of the way there

"reforming divorce to be more equitable" you see there's your first problem.

Divorce shouldn't be equitable. They should grant custody to the parent who's better capable to raise the children, and the other party shouldn't have to pay. Easy.

Land of the free https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAj9W0ntUMI

@Deleted User so you'd be ok with deadbeats going around knocking people up and scampering off?

i think regardless of gender whoever takes care of the kid should receive money in line with what the other parents contribution costs them, adjusted for what role they had in the seperation

@CronoSaturn deadbeat?

the state should not be able to seize someone's money and transfer it to someone else in the name of equity

I respect property rights

its not an equity thing

Just because a man was wealthy upon having children shouldn't give his wife any right to rob him if she divorces him later on

you know that alot of the child support stuff had support from your tradcon types so that if theyre daughter gets knocked up by jack down the road he has to either marry or help pay for it yeah?

If she wants to enjoy his wealth, perhaps she shouldn't divorce him

right but child support is not tied to marriage

alimony is a seperate thing

Well, it depends on the sort of society we're setting up here. I assume you'd prefer a more liberal or libertarian society, yes?

absolutely but liberalism is a broad church and im not a libertarian

We could always ban sex outside of marriage, and punish law breakers, but I think you'd be offended

i would be, plus its ineffective

people have sex outside of marriage whether you like it or not

So alternatively, we could say if a woman becomes pregnant the child is hers. She is not entitled to any money from her boyfriend.

If she wants his financial assistance, she should marry him

the problem is she might want to marry him and he does not

After all, if we are to act like women are adults with the same agency as men then they can refrain from sleeping around and getting pregnant before marriage.

Then she should have the agency to not fuck him without a condom

this is the original problem child support sought to solve

right but he also can *say* baby ill take care of you

Yes, people lie

Lying is not a crime

If you want financial support you ought to enter into a contract with the other person, that's what marriage used to be

Only now the contract offers the man no protection

right but the law sees that as a reasonable expectation that if they then knock the girl up then there was an offer and acceptance

thats a voluntary contract

That's unreasonable. If you want the man to provide you must give him something in return

also men can and do get alimony payments and child support

its more rare, but it occurs

Just like black women getting raped

By white men

Has it ever happened? Probably a few times, but it's extremely rare. It's usually black men raping white women

also the providing something to the man in return would presumably be the relationship / sex

its not extremely rare

In past societies the contract was that the man was the head of the household, he gained custody of their children, the wife and kids took his last name and so on

Who is y’all

For his financial service to provide for his wife and their kids, he was given authority

thats not strictly true snake and @Deleted User a bunch of autists

Now women demand free money and men get nothing

typically the wife was seen to have custody of the kids traditionally

Dang

Let’s go beat women then

?heykid

being against alimony is gay

https://imgur.com/a/JJ1400Y

*yes*

This FBI guy looks like such a good person.

I'd play baseball and drink OJ with him.

@Kazimir Malevich Привет! Долго, что мы не разговаривали!

such broad shoulders, so strong...

he makes me feel safe

Aaaaaaay, bloody heck! Long time no see! @(((El Gringo Narigón)))

yeah, fancy meeting you here! I must apologize for my long disappearance, life has been crazy

how have you been?

Nothing much, wby?

not much either, generally triggering people

ok this is epic

With facts and logic?

https://twitter.com/drsimonphoenix/status/1084222519211642881

Make white pride gifs now haha

@Deleted User u cant just make them, these are exclusively controlled by discord

I see what you mean

its not that black pride gets results, its that it gets hundreds and white pride gets zero

that is statistically impossible to be organic

You know what I just realized

The Soviet Union was the largest world power that opposed Israel <:thonk:520003926381166597>

lmao

They let Soviet Jews leave to Israel with out any issues

if a gentile tried to lave the soviet Union they would get shoot or imprisoned

More like expelled

🙄

@мιяαgє And then Stalin happened

I'm mostly being edgy, but

Stalin's anti-Semitism is well documented

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Russia_relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

Stalin was sorrounded by Jews

`Golda Meir was appointed Israel's minister to the Soviet Union, with her term beginning on 2 September 1948 and ending in March, 1949. She attended Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur services at the Moscow Choral Synagogue.[11] However once Israel was established, Stalin reversed positions, favoured the Arabs, arrested the leaders of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, and launched attacks on Jews in the USSR.[12]
`

Cause Israel betrayed them and Choice the USA and he got butthurt and tried to make a second Jewish Homeland in the Autonomous Jewish Oblast. @The Big Oof

@Deleted User And killed a ton of them

its only at the end he when paranoid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

```The Doctors' plot (Russian: дело врачей, "doctors' case", also known as the case of doctors-saboteurs (врачи-вредители) or doctors-killers (врачи-убийцы)) was an antisemitic campaign organized by Joseph Stalin. In 1952–1953, a group of predominantly Jewish doctors from Moscow were accused of conspiring to assassinate Soviet leaders```

Lazar Kaganovitch was a Jew

He married his sister

Also, according to Kruschev and many close to him, Stalin spoke ill of jewish people frequently in private