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Discord ID: 634367565304561675


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2019-10-30 06:20:01 UTC

it's the general heritability

2019-10-30 06:20:17 UTC

`Estimates of the total heritability of human traits assume the absence of epistasis, which has been called the "assumption of additivity". Although some researchers have cited such estimates in support of the existence of "missing heritability" unaccounted for by known genetic loci, the assumption of additivity may render these estimates invalid.[12] There is also some empirical evidence that the additivity assumption is frequently violated in behavior genetic studies of adolescent intelligence and academic achievement.[13]`

2019-10-30 06:20:48 UTC

there are genetic bottlenecks

2019-10-30 06:21:00 UTC

where a few families end up making the whole population

2019-10-30 06:21:01 UTC

babygottbach i dont really understand what you are ultimately arguing

2019-10-30 06:21:07 UTC

you dramatically change the gene pool that way

2019-10-30 06:21:07 UTC

@BabygottBach why is the assumption of additivity necessary?

2019-10-30 06:21:12 UTC

are you trying to tell us that children dont inherit genes from their parents?

2019-10-30 06:21:16 UTC

I don't know, @Nerthulas

2019-10-30 06:21:16 UTC

that's a simple way groups will difer by time

2019-10-30 06:21:17 UTC

there

2019-10-30 06:21:21 UTC

discussion over

2019-10-30 06:21:39 UTC

I don't understand the statistical measures of heritability to understand why

2019-10-30 06:21:58 UTC

can you explain why twins perform similarly in different environments if heritability of IQ is bullshit?

2019-10-30 06:22:17 UTC

He's calling things into question unjustifiably

2019-10-30 06:22:18 UTC

Some funky sociological mechanism

2019-10-30 06:22:23 UTC

That quote he just posted is shit

2019-10-30 06:22:24 UTC

I'm fully justified

2019-10-30 06:22:30 UTC

It's not even making a counter claim

2019-10-30 06:22:36 UTC

how is it not?

2019-10-30 06:22:40 UTC

It's simply trying to create doubt

2019-10-30 06:22:42 UTC

God of the gaps except god is society

2019-10-30 06:22:43 UTC

Sure

2019-10-30 06:22:48 UTC

Where's the counter claim and evidence to back it up

2019-10-30 06:22:50 UTC

I don't understand, what do you mean some funky sociological mechanism - they have identical genomes

2019-10-30 06:22:51 UTC

There literally are sociological studies though

2019-10-30 06:22:54 UTC

the findings are consistent

2019-10-30 06:22:56 UTC

Post up the study invalidating additivity

2019-10-30 06:23:02 UTC

>sociology

2019-10-30 06:23:04 UTC

LOL

2019-10-30 06:23:05 UTC

why do the twins have similar results?

2019-10-30 06:23:07 UTC

All you have is variance, @Nerthulas

2019-10-30 06:23:07 UTC
2019-10-30 06:23:09 UTC

Exactly

2019-10-30 06:23:15 UTC

@Nerthulas it conflicts with his world view so he has to invent some random "sociological mechanism" he cant explain

2019-10-30 06:23:19 UTC

Sociology is literal Frankfurt School shit

2019-10-30 06:23:30 UTC

```One of the most interesting developmental findings about intelligence is that its heritability as estimated in twin studies increases dramatically from infancy (20%) to childhood (40%) to adulthood (60%), while age-to-age genetic correlations are consistently high43,44. What could account for this increasing heritability despite unchanging age-to-age genetic correlations? Twin studies suggest that genetic effects are amplified through geneโ€“environment correlation as time goes by45. That is, the same large set of DNA variants affects intelligence from childhood to adulthood, resulting in high age-to-age genetic correlations, but these DNA variants increasingly have an impact on intelligence as individuals select environments correlated with their genetic propensities, leading to greater heritability of intelligence.

Developmental hypotheses about high age-to-age genetic correlations and increasing heritability can be tested more rigorously and can be extended using GPS. Does the variance explained by GPS for intelligence increase from childhood to adolescence to adulthood? Are the correlations between GPS at these ages consistently high?```

2019-10-30 06:23:40 UTC

They have identified many intelligence involved genes

2019-10-30 06:23:46 UTC

Additivity is correlating with performance

2019-10-30 06:23:48 UTC

if the twins have similar results in different environments, and that's broadly consistent across studies, then it must be heritable @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:23:53 UTC

what else could be happening?

2019-10-30 06:23:56 UTC

can you explain?

2019-10-30 06:24:02 UTC

And you come in with a "maybe this or that" to counter actual positive data

2019-10-30 06:24:04 UTC

`These are valid concerns โ€“ because genetics are rarely accounted for in sociological research on parental, neighborhood, and school influences on children, if genetic factors are related to shared environments and the outcomes, genetic confounding is a possibility. Because sociological and other social science research frequently concludes that these social environments are major determinants of educational prospects in early childhood (Alexander, et al., 2007, Fryer and Levitt, 2006, KewalRamani, et al., 2007), adolescence (Camara and Schmidt, 1999, Hedges and Nowell, 1999, Kobrin, et al., 2007) and beyond (Elman and O'Rand, 2004, Roscigno and Ainsworth-Darnell, 1999), it is important for sociological researchers to critically examine this literature to evaluate its conclusions.`

2019-10-30 06:24:19 UTC

I don't care about naked theory

2019-10-30 06:24:20 UTC

@Nerthulas it cant be the case that things could be heritable because that would be racist

2019-10-30 06:24:21 UTC

@TheUserNameofPeace, have you actually looked into the sociological side?

2019-10-30 06:24:22 UTC

therefore it must be something else

2019-10-30 06:24:30 UTC
2019-10-30 06:24:32 UTC

Or are you only familiar with the behavioral geneticist side?

2019-10-30 06:24:40 UTC

I'm sorry you're majoring in sociology

2019-10-30 06:24:45 UTC

Nice!

2019-10-30 06:24:46 UTC

We're going to eliminate it

2019-10-30 06:24:54 UTC

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638986670602977301/SPOILER_PTL0Pgv.webm

2019-10-30 06:24:59 UTC

You've got no argument against the sociologists

2019-10-30 06:25:07 UTC

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638986726853050368/unknown.png

2019-10-30 06:25:08 UTC

Sociology has what 80 percent replication crisis

2019-10-30 06:25:12 UTC

Lmao

2019-10-30 06:25:13 UTC

Sociology has a huge body of evidence that IQ is social

2019-10-30 06:25:24 UTC

@Deleted User, so does genetics

2019-10-30 06:25:42 UTC

(((huge body of evidence)))

2019-10-30 06:25:48 UTC

we've addressed this please stop posting it

2019-10-30 06:25:50 UTC

that's dishonest

2019-10-30 06:25:52 UTC

`The exponential fall in genome sequencing costs led to the use of GWAS studies which could simultaneously examine all candidate-genes in larger samples than the original finding, where the candidate-gene hits were found to almost always be false positives and only 2-6% replicate;[7][8][`

2019-10-30 06:25:54 UTC

๐Ÿ˜„

2019-10-30 06:26:01 UTC

Have you addressed this passage?

2019-10-30 06:26:13 UTC

@BabygottBach

Epistasis is biologically real but generally insignificant for selection purposes
https://t.co/tPjSuuDw13?amp=1

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638987003697823745/DsFAkVkWkAE6sNb.jpeg

2019-10-30 06:26:13 UTC

The replicability of sociology was brought up

2019-10-30 06:26:23 UTC

But genetics also has this problem

2019-10-30 06:26:24 UTC

how can anyone possibly cope

2019-10-30 06:26:26 UTC

Smart parents have better SES to pass to their kids because they are smart @BabygottBach Classic example that correlation does not equal causation

2019-10-30 06:26:36 UTC

tapirs have the largest pecker

2019-10-30 06:26:40 UTC

one for the hall of retard

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638987118051590144/unknown.png

2019-10-30 06:26:45 UTC

GWAS was replaced with GCTA which found that the traits were highly polygenic @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:26:54 UTC

so yes I've addressed it I think three times now

2019-10-30 06:26:54 UTC

`Lewontin claims that equation (1โ€ฒ)(1โ€ฒ) above presents the most accurate picture of the contributions to phenotypic variance. He goes on to argue that VI,VGร—EVI,VGร—E and COV(G,E)COV(G,E) are not negligible. In fact, he argues that these are always part and parcel of the variance in traits. As a result, apportioning the phenotypic variance between genes and environment is no easy matter and standard analyses of variance simply cannot come up with useful and informative values for h2bhb2 and h2h2. `

2019-10-30 06:27:14 UTC

soft science lol

2019-10-30 06:27:19 UTC

Listen, yo. Maybe there are neuron elves which help on IQ tests in some environments and not others. So we've got to toss out all your highly correlated genetic IQ data.

2019-10-30 06:27:25 UTC

Sociology TM

2019-10-30 06:27:36 UTC

"reading to your kids makes smart kids", or it's just the fact that smart parents read to their kids that inherit their intelligence

2019-10-30 06:28:00 UTC

I know a lot of stupid people who read novels like crazy

2019-10-30 06:28:12 UTC

@BabygottBach that quote is meaningless without context

2019-10-30 06:28:13 UTC

lol

2019-10-30 06:28:27 UTC

`Finally, VPVP can be effected by non-random correlations between genotypes and environments referred to as gene-environment covariation, COV(G,E)COV(G,E). For example, if plants with a genotype that tends to produce large plants also select nutrient- rich environments and plants with a genotype that tends to produce small plants also select nutrient- poor environments, the variance in height would be increased. If the relation was switched the variance would decrease (Futuyma 1998). `

2019-10-30 06:28:42 UTC

I still would like you to explain why twins keep performing similarly across measures and studies @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:28:44 UTC

there's that @Deleted User

2019-10-30 06:29:01 UTC

@BabygottBach Blacks underperform whites worldwide

2019-10-30 06:29:09 UTC

@Nerthulas, I'm not familiar with the sociological research on this matter.

2019-10-30 06:29:17 UTC

Let's try them in the vacuum of space

2019-10-30 06:29:22 UTC

Nigga I can't understand these snippets of a paper without the context

2019-10-30 06:29:24 UTC

So you trust it with no knowledge?

2019-10-30 06:29:26 UTC

What's the replicability rate of the GCTA?

2019-10-30 06:29:33 UTC
2019-10-30 06:29:36 UTC

@BabygottBach get in vc

2019-10-30 06:29:42 UTC

ok but the environments are different so why are the twins performing the same across measures and studies @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:29:43 UTC

I dont trust either side with no knowledge

2019-10-30 06:29:46 UTC

can you please explain this to me

2019-10-30 06:29:55 UTC

At this glance, it seems like there's a huge debate between two camps

2019-10-30 06:29:59 UTC

I just want you to explain why the twins perform the same

2019-10-30 06:30:17 UTC

Do you think parents treat twins exactly the same?

2019-10-30 06:30:25 UTC

The overarching point is that there are variances and I don't give a fuck exactly how they exist ๐Ÿ˜†

2019-10-30 06:30:29 UTC

Sociology TM

2019-10-30 06:30:37 UTC

well, its consistent across all measures and studies

2019-10-30 06:30:38 UTC

Look up the twin niching effect, @Nerthulas

2019-10-30 06:30:51 UTC

but its consistent across ***all*** twin studies

2019-10-30 06:30:52 UTC

Sexual reproduction causes the shuffling around (recombination) which breaks the epistasis so it actually isn't the death toll for heritability estimates or quantitative genetics

2019-10-30 06:30:54 UTC

Maybe there's a consistent sociological effect, @Nerthulas?

2019-10-30 06:30:58 UTC

if they didn't treat them the same, wouldn't that make them score differently?

2019-10-30 06:31:05 UTC

A confounding sociological variable.

2019-10-30 06:31:05 UTC

that's the opposit eof the claim

2019-10-30 06:31:12 UTC

but its different from the other siblings @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:31:16 UTC

"Parent may treat their twins differently by 1/10,000th of a degree, therefore ambiguity on heritability

2019-10-30 06:31:18 UTC

lmao

2019-10-30 06:31:26 UTC

so they are more alike to each other than to people they share environment with

2019-10-30 06:31:27 UTC

omg you guys are still at it

2019-10-30 06:31:29 UTC

can you explain this?

2019-10-30 06:31:36 UTC

@TheUserNameofPeace, where's the evidence for how close the parents treat their twins?

2019-10-30 06:31:42 UTC

It's pretty obvious actually considering we have been breeding animals and plants (and prob humans too) for over ten thousand years with great success

2019-10-30 06:31:46 UTC

twin adoption studies

2019-10-30 06:31:47 UTC
2019-10-30 06:31:56 UTC

still score the same..

2019-10-30 06:32:05 UTC

sociological effects

2019-10-30 06:32:08 UTC

@BabygottBach but can you explain why the twins are always more alike in intelligence than their non-related siblings

2019-10-30 06:32:09 UTC

kraut already explained twin studies are useless unless you precisely understand the genetic mechanisms

2019-10-30 06:32:19 UTC

Separated twins perform similiarly

2019-10-30 06:32:23 UTC

Raised separated

2019-10-30 06:32:28 UTC

sociological effects are the answer @TheUserNameofPeace ?

2019-10-30 06:32:35 UTC

Sociological effects

2019-10-30 06:32:37 UTC

yep

2019-10-30 06:32:43 UTC

How do you know

2019-10-30 06:32:46 UTC

no

2019-10-30 06:32:49 UTC

what sociological effect causes twins to be 80% alike in intelligence? @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:32:51 UTC

can you tell me?

2019-10-30 06:32:52 UTC

until you debunk the sociological effect hypothesis, you're just arguing god of the gaps

2019-10-30 06:33:06 UTC

thats liyerally your argument

2019-10-30 06:33:13 UTC

It's fascinating how mirrored the two positions are.

2019-10-30 06:33:37 UTC

Jesus this guy is such a sophist

2019-10-30 06:33:39 UTC

I ask for the genetic molecular mechanisms, I get accused of god of the gaps

2019-10-30 06:33:40 UTC

I just want you to explain why the twins perform so similarly @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:33:44 UTC

it seems like you're squirming

2019-10-30 06:33:54 UTC

Then you do exactly the same thing with the twin studies

2019-10-30 06:33:55 UTC

```"We were surprised by certain behaviors that showed a genetic influence, such as religiosity [and] social attitudes," said Nancy Segal, an evolutionary psychologist at California State University, Fullerton, who was part of the study for nine years. "Those surprised us, because we thought those certainly must come from the family [environment]," Segal told Live Science. Segal described the groundbreaking research on Aug. 7 here at a meeting of the American Psychological Association.```

2019-10-30 06:33:58 UTC

It's not just IQ

2019-10-30 06:34:00 UTC

You are arguing from god of the gaps.

2019-10-30 06:34:04 UTC

no, you don't understand

2019-10-30 06:34:10 UTC

We explained it many times

2019-10-30 06:34:13 UTC

nerthulas is my bf

2019-10-30 06:34:13 UTC

We focus on IQ because it's important and we have a lot of data

2019-10-30 06:34:25 UTC

"I need to see the quarks interacting for it to be true"

2019-10-30 06:34:28 UTC

this guy

2019-10-30 06:34:28 UTC

It's disposition

2019-10-30 06:34:32 UTC

Social factors

2019-10-30 06:34:36 UTC

Everything

2019-10-30 06:34:40 UTC

Your argument against sociology is literally that you lack the the abiity to come up with a mechanism.

2019-10-30 06:34:51 UTC

if your position were more likely, we'd expect the people raised together to be more alike than the twins raised apart, but we see exactly the opposite, and we see it very strongly @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:34:53 UTC

bf above

2019-10-30 06:34:55 UTC

You blanketly deny the most likely solution to say muh sociology

2019-10-30 06:34:59 UTC

@Deleted User "I need to see the exact social mechanisms for it to be true" this guy

2019-10-30 06:35:01 UTC

you're now trying to say its equvalent

2019-10-30 06:35:05 UTC

you're conceding territory

2019-10-30 06:35:10 UTC

but its not equivalent

2019-10-30 06:35:15 UTC

@Nerthulas, that is false

2019-10-30 06:35:23 UTC

@BabygottBach can you please address this?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638989310007443467/unknown.png

2019-10-30 06:35:27 UTC

The sociological effects may provide a confounding variable.

2019-10-30 06:35:34 UTC

what do you mean by that?

2019-10-30 06:35:37 UTC

What sociological effect

2019-10-30 06:35:40 UTC

why are the twins more similar?

2019-10-30 06:35:42 UTC

what genes?

2019-10-30 06:35:48 UTC

LOL

2019-10-30 06:35:57 UTC

Banjod posted about 600 of them I think

2019-10-30 06:35:58 UTC

There may be a sociological effect that has not been accounted for

2019-10-30 06:35:58 UTC

earlier

2019-10-30 06:36:04 UTC

Twins raised apart being so much more similar to one another than another random set of people or the twin compared with another random sample from his own group utterly wrecks your entire position @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:36:06 UTC

He did

2019-10-30 06:36:17 UTC

what molecules do these genes code for, @Nerthulas ?

2019-10-30 06:36:26 UTC

hahahah

2019-10-30 06:36:26 UTC

and that sociological effect affects twins hundreds of miles apart to be similar @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:36:27 UTC

?

2019-10-30 06:36:27 UTC

how do these molecules interact with IQ?

2019-10-30 06:36:29 UTC

see he used the kraut line

2019-10-30 06:36:35 UTC

FIND THE GENES BIGOT

2019-10-30 06:36:38 UTC

@Nerthulas, sure.

2019-10-30 06:36:47 UTC

"There may be"

2019-10-30 06:36:53 UTC

Don't humor him

2019-10-30 06:36:55 UTC

we need to have complete molecular understanding of every gene expression before we can accept twin studies

2019-10-30 06:37:07 UTC

He's being sarcastic i think

2019-10-30 06:37:09 UTC

these guys are stamped off a factory or something

2019-10-30 06:37:11 UTC

We've stacked up a mountain of evidence and he's brought faith-based arguments

2019-10-30 06:37:13 UTC

I'm sorry, how do you know these genes have any causal relation to IQ?

2019-10-30 06:37:25 UTC

i dont think so

2019-10-30 06:37:34 UTC

@fuguer, just like I need to have complete sociological understanding before I reject twin studies?

2019-10-30 06:37:37 UTC

so some unknown sociological effect causes twins raised in different environments to be 80% similar with respect to intelligence, and much more similar to each other in intelligence than people they were raised with and shared an environment with @BabygottBach ?

2019-10-30 06:37:37 UTC

what a hypocrite you are

2019-10-30 06:37:47 UTC

No you need to have any iota of proof

2019-10-30 06:37:49 UTC

can you just tell me if that's your position?

2019-10-30 06:37:55 UTC

Which uou have provided exactly none

2019-10-30 06:37:57 UTC

No smart black population ever in the history of man, with a massive variance in enviroment

2019-10-30 06:38:03 UTC

@Nerthulas, I've proven that there ARE sociological studies that show social effects for IQ.

2019-10-30 06:38:05 UTC

@BabygottBach this one please

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638989990554238976/unknown.png

2019-10-30 06:38:08 UTC

I'm just not familiar with them

2019-10-30 06:38:13 UTC

You also aren't

2019-10-30 06:38:17 UTC

if you're picking and choosing what scientific studies to accept and they happen to all align with your worldview, then you're not intellectually honest

2019-10-30 06:38:17 UTC

No one here is

2019-10-30 06:38:23 UTC

no I'm not talking about social causes of IQ

2019-10-30 06:38:25 UTC

you're just like a climate denier

2019-10-30 06:38:26 UTC

You equate an imcomplete understanding with a void understanding

2019-10-30 06:38:27 UTC

please understand

2019-10-30 06:38:32 UTC

@fuguer, have you read the sociological studies?

2019-10-30 06:38:42 UTC

I'm asking you to explain the similarity of twins with respect to this

2019-10-30 06:38:45 UTC

>these studies I never read say something that validates my worldview

2019-10-30 06:38:48 UTC

No, you've come in to disprove and downgrade the heritability factor of IQ

2019-10-30 06:38:56 UTC

That's what you came in with

2019-10-30 06:39:05 UTC

I'm not asking you if sociological factors can influence IQ, please understand that @BabygottBach

2019-10-30 06:39:28 UTC

@Nerthulas the study I linked is just such a study

2019-10-30 06:39:37 UTC

I'm asking you if you think that sociological factors account for the 80% similarity between twins regardless of environment with respect to intelligence

2019-10-30 06:40:02 UTC

I said I'm not asking you if sociological factors influence IQ

2019-10-30 06:40:02 UTC

This study isclaiming hat position.

2019-10-30 06:40:12 UTC

I know you did

2019-10-30 06:40:15 UTC

no its not, it claims that they should be more cautious

2019-10-30 06:40:18 UTC

lol

2019-10-30 06:40:31 UTC

can you explain their mechanism?

2019-10-30 06:40:31 UTC

It does more than that I'm afraid

2019-10-30 06:40:35 UTC

their explanation of that?

2019-10-30 06:41:10 UTC

"These findings should encourage caution among those who claim that the frequently trivial variance attributed to shared environments in behavioral genetic models means that families, schools, and neighborhoods do not meaningfully influence these outcomes."

2019-10-30 06:41:11 UTC

Yeah there is a difference between a critique of the methodology behind twin studies and actually producing some empirical evidence that contradicts them lol

2019-10-30 06:41:16 UTC

yes, they just encourage caution

2019-10-30 06:41:23 UTC

they don't claim to be some big btfo

2019-10-30 06:41:34 UTC

and I don't know how people have responded to them

2019-10-30 06:41:38 UTC

` Using monozygotic twin fixed effects models, which compare outcomes among genetically identical pairs, we show that many characteristics of objectively shared environments significantly moderate the effects of nonshared environments on adolescent academic achievement and verbal intelligence, violating the additivity assumption of behavioral genetic methods. `

2019-10-30 06:41:38 UTC

I'll have to investigate that

2019-10-30 06:41:45 UTC

Damn, they do more than encourage caution

2019-10-30 06:41:52 UTC

How dishonest can you be?

2019-10-30 06:41:54 UTC

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/634367565304561675/638990950554664980/latest.png

2019-10-30 06:42:02 UTC

I just quoted them

2019-10-30 06:42:23 UTC

They aren't JUST encouraging caution

2019-10-30 06:42:32 UTC

```Another study, commissioned by the editor of the journal Science, looked at genetics and IQ. The Minnesota researchers found that about 70 percent of IQ variation across the twin population was due to genetic differences among people, and 30 percent was due to environmental differences. The finding received both praise and criticism, but an updated study in 2009 containing new sets of twins found a similar correlation between genetics and IQ.```

2019-10-30 06:42:45 UTC

I didn't say they were

2019-10-30 06:42:49 UTC

I said that was their conclusion

2019-10-30 06:42:56 UTC

and I'm right

2019-10-30 06:42:57 UTC

lol

2019-10-30 06:43:09 UTC

He's offering sociological shit

2019-10-30 06:43:24 UTC

You could literally cite me an infinite number of heritability studies, @TheUserNameofPeace, and it won't budge me one inch

2019-10-30 06:43:29 UTC

Sociology is literally only able to survive so long as PC HR departments are around

2019-10-30 06:43:36 UTC

@TheUserNameofPeace critique the study, sophist

2019-10-30 06:43:38 UTC

Prove that

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