@chain

https://www.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/

@chain

@chain you could take hrt and be an egirl on chatterbate

easy money

@Deleting User you are gay

@LustrousMandrill you are gay

@Deleted User you are gay

Wtf

@󠀀󠀀 󠀀󠀀󠀀󠀀 󠀀󠀀 󠀀󠀀Tyler🔥 unknown, probable gay

@actual_communist_boi you are gay

oh also

@Deleted User debate me on desistance

I can't be gay because I'm enby

you may know me when I went by char @actual_communist_boi

On what

I'm gonna make you desist

we shouldn't let pre-14yo do hrt

61%, 11 years: in the Netherlands between 1989 and 2005, 61.1% (33/54) desisted of 54 respondents (age 19.2) to the second wave of a survey of 77 attendees (age 8.37) of a gender identity clinic: <https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(08)60142-2/fulltext> <https://sci-hub.se/10.1097/CHI.0b013e31818956b9> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/418850379518705675/661240469627469834/unknown.png ```Because there were no significant differences between the desistance group and the parent group for all background variables (marital status: #2 3 = 4.41, p 9 .05); diagnoses in childhood (#2 1 = 0.676, p 9 .05); nationality: (#2 4 = 2.56, p 9 .05); full-scale IQ (z = j0.27, p = .80); and psychological functioning, as measured by the Child Behavior Checklist (CBCL; total T scores [z = j0.88, p 9 .05], internalizing T scores [z = j0.84, p 9 .05], or externalizing T scores [z = j1.17, p 9 .05]), the participants in the parent group were included in the desistance group. Therefore, the desistance group consisted of 33 participants (28 boys and 5 girls).```

63%, 7 years: in the Netherlands between 2000 and 2008, 63.0% (80/127) desisted of 127 respondents and nonrespondents (age 16.1) to the second wave of a survey of 127 attendees (age 9.15) of a gender identity clinic; persistence was correlated with higher age, childhood social transition, and higher gender identity questionaire scores: <https://jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(13)00187-1/fulltext> <http://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.jaac.2013.03.016> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/418850379518705675/661565812766670878/unknown.png ```For the 3 desister groups, no significant differences were observed between the responders, parents who responded, and nonresponders for the demographic variables, except for childhood diagnosis (c2 [2] ¼ 6.90, p < .05). The adolescents for whom the parents responded were more likely to have a subthreshold diagnosis for GID than the responders and nonresponders. However, in their scores on the childhood measures of GD and psychological functioning, the 3 groups were not significantly different. Given this information, the 3 groups were combined to 1 group of desisters for further analyses.```

58%, 1.5 years: in the USA between 2014 and 2017, 58.3% (7/12) desisted of 12 patients (age 14.1) with adolescent-emerging gender dysphoria within 18 months of the first clinical session: <https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1359104518825288> <https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/1359104518825288> ```The mean length of the psychosocial assessment was 9.6months (range=2–14 months). The mean number of assessment sessions was 6.6 (range=2–9 sessions). The mean number of individual appointments was 1.7 (range=0–4 sessions) and the mean number of family sessions was 5 (range=1–8 sessions), that is, on the whole, family sessions constituted much of the assessment. During the course of assessment, seven of the young people, all of whom no longer requested medical interventions also no longer felt that their gender identity was incongruent with their biological sex; the remainder continued in their trans identities but no longer desired medical interventions. Out of the 12 cases, the majority had not received a formal diagnosis of GD.```

80%, 8.5 years: in Toronto in 1980's-90's, 80% (36/45) desisted of 45 respondents (age 16.7) to the second wave of a survey of 45 attendees (age 8.3) of a gender identity clinic: <https://books.google.com/books?id=atfTHGjjVeIC&pg=PA290> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/418850379518705675/661638966260269085/unknown.png [can't access table 10.5]

most trans kids don't stay trans

60-80%

(there are 5 more studies I am currently processing)

ergo most trans kids shouldn't receive trans hormones

Nice copypasta, im stealing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z5CHFUvn1U

This is a good video

Cringe wall paper though

@Deleted User this is not a good video lmfao

@Deleted User the fact alone that Murray cites Lynn's Africa studies should be sufficient

Nah

Skull is still wrong

@Deleted User on what

Watch the video

actual commie boi posting transmedicalism <:REEE:644893026165981184>

@sydtko am I wrong tho

No. I was being a faux reactionary...
I'm somewhat in the transmedicalism boat

@actual_communist_boi jebaited <:Smug:643129431434461194>

And yes, you're always wrong

And always right

In some sense

Gross

You're trans med? @sydtko

Probably... if the meaning is I don't think people should be messing with their hormones without dysphoria...
Granted, underlying that is a liberal principle... so, there's discovery and science to be done of people that are willing to be... what are effectively scientific frontiersmen

Why not?

Sort of depends on which value or mindset/disposition I am in when I think about it...
A capitalist mindset might say this has negative ramifications on people's productivity
A scientist is like... "HELL YEA" more inductions

Why not what?

Also... when it comes to uh... something that parallels HRT is the garage biohackers with CRISPR. While there's massive arguments for regulating it... I also think you should allow people to do it

@Deleted User You need to clarify your question if you want a response though. "Why not..." [what] ? I've lost the referent / pronoun here

Why shouldn't they change their hormones

And I'm not sure how hormones with the informed consent model is comparable to DIY Crispr

There's risk associated with it or the medical term would be one sec...
reason not prescribe stuff

Because, in the end, you're taking on what is some amount of risk to alter your body for a better or different quality of life

And you think people shouldn't be able to do that?

This goes back to which disposition you ask me from... if it's paid by the state and then winds up having negative results on productivity or human capital, no (capitalist mindset)
However, from a science perspective, you actually have to do the inductions to know the above

To know if something is going to be highly detrimental or not

I think based on what I know about transitioning... it seems generally benign or neutral

I'm actually really triggered that I can't find the specific word for "reason not to prescribe meds"... it's a co- prefix word

The meaning of the word is like... opioids. Doctors don't give you them unless you have a severe pain problem, because opioids are relatively dangerous and you're taking on risk

Contraindications

just wondering do you only have those two mindsets, capitalist and scientific

I don't believe I only have two, I appeal to these two the most... the rest didn't have relevance

issues must be pretty simple if u only call on 2

I mean... I meme hardcore on people as a trivialist and with Walt Whitman's quote
"Very well, I contradict myself... I am massive, I am many"

@sydtko I'm not transmedicalist lmfao

Yes, I am a simpleton and the dumbest man alive

I'm saying that we should require therapy and a formal diagnosis before hormones

and probably a higher age limit

@actual_communist_boi that's what you think <:Smug:643129431434461194>

@Deleted User I think the Netherlands should raise it to 14, everywhere else lower it to 14

based on this data

I'm pretty sure... that's the tenets of transmedicalism

literally no

lmfao

wot

```Transmedicalism is a term for a wide range of beliefs in the transgender community that are critical of transgender people who haven't medically transitioned and/or don't experience major dysphoria. Many transmedicalists (or "transmeds" for short) focus on gatekeeping.

```

I don't care if you do or don't transition

"... a formal diagnosis" probably means GD, yes?

**medically transitioned and/or don't experience major dysphoria.** is roughly equivalent to "... a formal diagnosis" ?

Am I mistaken?

@actual_communist_boi it's less then 50 at age 14?

Or before?

I've sort of conflated truscum, transmed with each other...
And it does seem to be a normal position... among normies... (but I could be mistaken)
If you're not undergoing HRT or have dysphoria, they probably assume you're cis

Why should you require therapy and a formal diagnosis before hormones? @actual_communist_boi

And yes this is trans med garbage

@Deleted User if healthcare is free, caveat

<:pepehands:644890202304937994>

if it's not, I'm fine w/ it being w/o diagnosis

assuming healthcare is free (AHIF)

So then how can people who don't have those in a free healthcare system get it?

AHIF, people should get therapy before getting any medication with a semi-high risk

**if it's not, I'm fine w/ it being w/o diagnosis**

read!

You said if healthcare is free it should require it

yes

AHIF, people should get therapy before getting any medication with a semi-high risk

here let me formalize it

Yea, he's taking the same stance I am...
Paid for by the state, there should be the process limiting/gatekeeping it
If paid for personally, by the individual, it's unnecessary

Yeah but if the state has free healthcare they might make private healthcare illegal

What are you supposed to do then

[1] AHIF
[2] people should get therapy before getting any medication with a semi-high risk
[3] hrt is a medication with a semi-high risk for adolescents
[4] adolescents should get therapy before getting hrt medication

Fucking Socialisfs

lol

now you're meming

2 is false

And no I'm not

I hate you people now

There will probably still be a black market chemist for HRT ... if you're really that concerned... tbh.

That's dangerous you moron

Why shojdl they have to go to the blsck market

You fucking asshole

@actual_communist_boi plenty of single payer plans include makibg private healthcare illegal

<:Feelsweirdman:644895953064820776>

Respond to my point

@Deleted User and???

this would be public healthcare

omg

Where will you get it if private healthcare is illegal

from

the

public

system

because

it's

free

But you don't have dysphoria or therapy

Where?

???

you get free therapy

because it's free

because it's the NHS

holy shit

But you don't have gender dysphoria

So again

?????????

Answer my question

you can see a therapist without a GD diagnosis

everyone should have a therapist, period

When people say therpay they mean formal diagnosis

yes! from a psychologist/psychiatrist

Or a waiting time period of therpay

your therapist!

Get in vc

Yorue annoying me

i cannot speak

gime tts

Ffs

<:pepeLMAO:644901342216847388>

I am pretty laggy as well

@Deleted User nah i don't care about time period

no????

It usually takes some time with a counselor to have a diagnosis. which can stall a timeframe of getting HRT

it's a diagnosis

I mean I guess that might take time

but like

????

acab. All communists are bastards

i'm not saying take 4 months then diagnose

it's however quick the diagnosis occurs

and yes it should be a diagnosis

then it's probably higher risk for you to take the meds than not

Ong

for the bad effects of hrt

In talking about I'd you don't have GD

basically going through transition twice

You fucking Morin

yes, people shouldn't get drugs if they just want them

assuming they cause some harm

wait do you disagree

???

literally what do you think I'm saying

wait

so on the flip side

do you want kids to be damaged by going through a transition that they will then detransition, that that is ok?

It's true, we shouldn't allow people to sell heroin to five year olds

booooooo

??????????

In talking about kids

I'm talking about 14+

@Deleted User do you agree with this flowchart

I'm not talking about kids

You retard

who?

adults?

Yes

oh yeah sure they can take it

He did say 18+

wait did you

I missed that

nah this is kids

detransition rates are low for adults

Probably more like 16+

mmmm

grayer zone

that's not true, hormone blockers

... but they should be able to cuz it's free

I'd still say like

they should get some approval from a doctor to take it

but that's easy

Informed consent

Jack ass

Well, that's probably a tenet of transmedicalism...
they want to have some sort of rapport with a counselor/therapist at an early age... hormone blockers, a diagnosis, etc

yes

thats' literally

not

transmedicalist

```Transmedicalism is a term for a wide range of beliefs in the transgender community that are critical of transgender people who haven't medically transitioned and/or don't experience major dysphoria. Many transmedicalists (or "transmeds" for short) focus on gatekeeping.

```

trans people who don't transition are still valid!

just as valid!

sorry, gonna eat lunch

lmfao

I don't think they say non transitions are invalid...
They just not trans

@Deleted User the ONLY claims I will make are that [1] hrt should require GD diag and [2] srs should require GD diag

Okay that's false

Niether should require it

???

but then you risk unnecessary treatment

a waste of resources

Why should hrt require a GD diagnosis

5:14 PM] acb: ???
[5:14 PM] acb: but then you risk unnecessary treatment
[5:14 PM] acb: a waste of resources

I don't think all unecessary things are waste

If you think this then stop playing video games

we should set a higher standardfor medicine than for playtime

b/c it has longer and larger consequences

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Yeah you can fuck off

I don't think physiological preferences are comparable to "play time"

I ate fast and you two were gone <:pepehands:644890202304937994>

```2:13 PM] acb: trans people who don't transition are still valid!
[2:13 PM] acb: just as valid!```
Of course... but I still don't see how believing the above makes **one not a transmedicalist**

Unless you're like... an exclusionary or **trans only, transmedicalist** which seems like a particularly rare position

We canf allbe soulless robots with No physiological préférences

Which is why I'm not really concerned with the label of being a transmed...

I mean... there's not much reason to be upset, if you're taking this personally...
It's because you feel personally you could not have had access to a counselor to build the rapport or be in the system long enough to get a diagnosis?
But this is why socialism/free healthcare is actually so vital

If we had had free health care, people could have been diagnosed earlier for hormone blockers

And that paves the way for more controlled/secure transitions

I already have one

Has nothing to do with me personally

I'm just disgusted by the view

https://open.spotify.com/track/1kxeWHF9PrCVZHvVskv8lg?si=jKIP9nbjTwS425E4Chj56A

why is that?

.

anyone wanna play showdown

Because I think it's immoral

It's immoral to try to filter out some people from transitioning when they may not need it and could possibly change their mind?
If anything this just seems like appealing to expert opinion...

Which might be paternalistic but