Same with the united kingdom, compare the crime rate in low income arab communities with the crime rate of low income english communities

Wonder what you'll find 🤔

Once again, culture is only loosely tethered to race. There are Muslims of all different races, but their culture is similar

https://i.imgur.com/cMCRsWN.png

https://i.imgur.com/baXNsAm.png

and again it's also important to stress that you can't separate income disparity from race either

black people will naturally tend toward having lower incomes because they are far less intelligent on average

@Death in June This chart doesn't show any of the threat coefficients - the rankings could be almost equal in weight or they could be vastly different - it doesn't tell you

Oh wait, never mind

This chart deliberately muddies the waters for your arguments - there are a significant number of positive and negative indicators on this chart that individually outweigh racial factors

And, taken as a whole, they VASTLY outweigh any sort of solely race-based coefficients

Thanks for proving my point for me, though

<:BIGBRAIN:501101491428392991>

what point does that prove

this seems to show that black people are in fact more prone to criminal activity

even when controlling for other variables

variables that are partially the result of people's race anyhow

You don't have controlled variables here

like poverty

The coefficient for poverty is almost just as high as the one for "percent black"

and

that doesn't go against the original point

and of course again

being black leads to poverty

But that doesn't really tell the whole story - because there's not a universal definition for poverty

so by separating the variables in this manner we're understating the impact blackness has

You're delusional

Being black does not cause poverty

of course it does

No, dumbass, it doesn't

in general people with lower iq's are less economically successful

The IQ thing is a red herring

black people in america have on average an iq one standard deviation below that of white people

Just want to point out that average stats on large groups of people doesn’t dictate how well different people and culture mix, similar stats can be brought up about left handed people..., provided values are close, non of this stuff really matters to much to allow a nation to stay unified

IQ tests are not the only objective measurement of intelligence

ok

And it's not that clear that people with high IQ scores are even legitimately more intelligent

They may just be better at taking IQ tests

yeah they're better at taking a test that measures your ability to apply abstract reasoning to problems

In the particular method of IQ tests, yes

You could probably make the same observations about people who can clap their hands faster

what observations

About economic success

we don't have the data on the relative hand clapping speed of black and white people

You could make the claim about people with green eyes

Or red hair

so this is irrelevant

Or one leg that's longer than the other

Yeah, your data is junk, is what I'm saying - it's statistical noise

how is it statistical noise

Or, at least, you can't necessarily show a causal connection

You can show a CORRELATION

i can't necessarily show a causal connection between what

Do I have to quote you back to yourself?

you can just specify what you're talking about

You're saying: people with lower IQs are less economically successful

You're saying: black people have lower IQs (in general)

You're saying: therefore being black leads to poverty

more or less

Those arguments don't follow

They're not connected in the way you think they are

I'm trying to show you how they can be correlated, and not part of a causal chain

yeah they can be

But they aren't

they are correlated

Correlated, yes

Not necessarily caused

not necessarily caused

but i believe that they are

That's your perspective. I don't think they are

Maybe show something more than just opinion then?

i think the causal link between iq and economic success is clear

It's absolutely not clear

iq measures abstract reasoning, a tool that is useful in many high paying professions

In order to prove causation, you have to show the direct link between being good at taking IQ tests to making more money

show the direct link how

You have to show how being good at taking IQ tests somehow directly translates into making money

how

Are these people receiving money based on their IQ test performance?

you are just saying the same thing over and over again without elaborating on how one would show this

Yeah, because you can't. Economic success is so far downstream of taking an IQ test that you can't show that link

lol

Like I said, you might as well be saying that people who can recite the alphabet backwards are more economically successful

and the hand is shown

People who are good knife-throwers are more economically successful

People who wore shirt sizes too big for them in high school

anyone remember the movie "The Madness of King George" ? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgZvg7SR_DE

Nigel Hawthorne was great in this

Your argument doesn't follow

i don't think these variables are equivalent to iq in this regard

there's a clearer causal link once can deduce through reason with iq

They're exactly as valid as IQ tests

People who wear glasses are more successful

but like a typical progressive, your entire shtick is to assume the progressive position as a default and to set the burden of proof for any opposing position so high it can't be met

People who part their hair in the middle instead of on the side

do you think the causal link between the way one parts their hair and income is as clear as the causal link between a measurement of one's ability to recognize patterns and apply reason and income?

Your argument is like the one that I used to hear about, if your second toe is longer than your big toe, you'll be the head of the household when you grow up

answer the question please

there's only one answer you can give if you're being honest

It's 100% as valid as IQ test scores

so you're dishonest

No, you just don't like me pointing out the flaw in your statistics

you're not pointing out a flaw

People who have tattoos are more successful

i mean, other than in the sense that the statistic taken by itself doesn't *necessarily* prove what i am saying it does

People who break a bone as a child are more successful

and again with the false equivalences

What's false about them?

because the potential causal link is not as clear with these variables

How are they less valid than your totally non-causal connections?

@Benjamin Henry please find some research if u want to convince June, otherwise ur gonna get nowhere

can you demonstrate a causal link between socioeconomic status and crime in the way that you are asking of me?

(no)

assume the progressive position as the default, and set the burden of proof for the opposing position so high it cannot ever be "proven"

very cliche routine!

Actually, yes. If you or your family has less money, it's just more likely you'll resort to other means to take care of yourself or them. Mazlow's hierarchy of needs

lmao

There's a direct causal relationship there

uh no there's not

you haven't proven this causal relationship exists

If you say so

you've just given me the equivalent of what i've given for the causal link between iq and income

No, I've given you a causal relationship. You only have correlation

but you haven't demonstrated this causal relationship exists

you've given a potential causal explanation

but you haven't proven that it's real

You have two things that could be decades apart

Also the chart that was linked controlled for that, right?

It was, yes

I didn't see IQ on that chart, btw

so all you have is an attempt to establish a causal relationship through reason? the exact same thing i did with iq and income?

No, not the same - because doing well on IQ tests, as I said, doesn't necessarily measure what you're claiming it measures

All it measures is how good you are at taking IQ tests

yes and being good at iq tests involves how well you are able to apply abstract reasoning and pattern recognition

Or, you could just take them over and over and your score can improve

this is irrelevant to iq statistics in general

I think it's quite relevant

Since the taking of tests in general is a skill you can improve

no because the overwhelming majority of people who comprise the iq statistics we have do not do this

Yea IQ has been proven to be a pretty reliable measure.... certainly reliable enough to not just throw it out. I doubt the people in these studies are avid IQ test takers lol

The percentage of them that are taking the test over and over again as you suggest... is not enough to be statistically significant

IQ tests are easily game-able

Asks for evidence... then when given it... You decide its trash evidence... basically... not good enough for whatever reason.

I told you exactly why it's not good evidence

It's actually the exact same argument against state standardized tests, like the ones I took back at home in Pennsylvania

So students are taught to a particular test, rote memorization, instead of actual learning

If kids are taught specifically to take an IQ test, obviously they're going to do better

Which means that the test itself isn't that valuable a measuring tool

you can't apply rote memorization to an iq test

That's an example

You can be taught how to be good at taking IQ tests, too

Id say that you certainly have failed to demonstrate that culture is separate from race. And that Death in June has used evidence to demonstrate that failure. Also taking IQ tests regularly is not apart of any schools regimen... once again the amount of people that are doing what you suggest is not statistically significant

@UnScottable I don't know what you read back there, but culture is actually significantly different from race

if all you're pointing out is that they're test specific skills associated with iq tests this doesn't really change the fact that in order to solve the problems you still have to be able to apply abstract reasoning to find the patterns present

We were looking at two narrow measures - crime and IQ

you can become better by being more familiar with the kind of puzzle you are facing, but the core skills are still there

Maybe

and in any case with the samples we are using test familiarity is going to be very uniform across the test group

I don't know how you can think that

People are different from each other

yes

Kids put very different levels of effort into different things

but as far as i'm aware the vast majority of people who take iq tests do not prepare specifically for them or have taken them prior at appreciably different rates

They have very different priorities

I'm just pointing out how vague and not useful it is to single out IQ test scores

it's one of the main measurable differences between the groups we were talking about

Yeah, but it clearly has no effect on crime rates, according to the chart you put up there

wat

And if race = culture, then you'd probably have seen a correlation

But it isn't there

i never posted a chart that included the variables of iq and crime

Did you read the same chart we read?

Yeah, you posted a chart that showed the factors that affect crime

And IQ wasn't on there

yes

If IQ is a significant difference between races

Then it would likely be on the chart as well

what do you mean

Since race IS on there, the other things that "go with race" would ostensibly be on the chart as well

in a sense

look... the fact that in america around 7% of the population commit 50% of the rapes... has nothing to do with socioeconomic status

@UnScottable Get fucked, dude

You're out of place here

i need breakfast

Lol what do you mean by that

7% of the population doesn't "commit 50% of the rapes." CRIMINALS commit 50%, and actually 100%, of the rapes

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

What exactly is this chart supposed to show me?

in proportion, comparing the population size of whites and blacks. The ratio of blacks that commit violent crimes is much higher.

Looking at the statistic of rape... which is devoid of financial motive. We can see that this ratio is not due to just socioeconomic status

Oh, alright - because I was going to say that literally across the board, every single crime here is committed by majority white people

Except for gambling crimes - single outlier

right, but keep in mind whites are a much much larger population size

So the disparity is pretty stark

Yeah, but if the ratios were flipped, the proportions might flip as well - you don't really know

That is a hypothetical scenario... which there is no statistics for

but I seriously doubt that thered be LESS crime if the country was majority black.

Exactly, so as soon as you get back from the alternate dimension where the US is majority black, you can tell me

I doubt the ratio would change all that much in a majority black country

Well you can't know, since there's no other country as rich or as diverse as the US, majority black or otherwise

That doesnt really subtract from the issue here

Doesn't add to it, I'd say

It does because it clearly shows there is a cultural issue that would cause the ratio to be that way. For example 72% of black children are born out of wedlock

I believe the percentage for whites is around 30% now

I don't see how race is relevant to that issure

*issue

You could probably substitute any race into that statistic. Imagine it was asians, for example, would they be likely or not likely to be suffering the same problems as a result? If likely, then race clearly isn't the important variable there, and also culture and race are not the same

Dont you see how your side of this is based on hypotheticals and things that dont exist, whilst the other is based in reality.

No, my side is based on showing you your data doesn't show what you think it shows

You don't have any comparative data

Shall i pull up the percentage of asians that are born out of wedlock

You just have one-off, circumstantial correlations

You don't need to - I already know that their numbers are different

But that doesn't mean it's based on race

They also developed in a totally different part of the world

we're talking about americans that are these races

So they are all in America, the same country

Are you denying there's a distinctly American culture, then?

What what makes you say that lol

Well if race and culture are the same, then white Americans are the same as the British, the same as the French, the same as the Germans, the same as the Norwegians...

And black Americans are the same as Jamaicans, same as Haitians, same as Nigerians, same as Ethiopians...

I think there is a distinctly American culture... and that some races/ethnicities are better at embodying that culture then others.

That doesn't make any sense

There would have to have been some a priori, objective American cultural system that existed before America existed

There is a distinctly british culture as well, and Id posit that some races are better at embodying it then others as well

That also doesn't make any sense

There would, once again, have to be some measuring stick

Some sort of pre-existing objective cultural golden ratio or something

Crime rates are the measuring stick, out of wedlock births... and etc. The things we have been discussing are the measuring stick.

Okay

I'm tired

I just had a horrible thought.
Instead of having a general election like everyone is saying.
Instead everyone just end up occupying their seats until 2022 and the speaker morphs into a de-facto PM.
Were parliament turns from a place were the government and the opposition speak through the speaker into a place were parties just sit there and ask an unelected speaker-PM nicely to enact legislation in their favour.

why is this idiot posting US stats in the UK politics

Are you lost?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-boris-johnson-parliament-saturday-deal-eu-article-50-extension-a9148451.html

To be fair US is like UK spinoff <:pepelaugh:544857300179877898>

They love using "crashing out", not biased at all. It's "leaving on WTO terms"

I also like using it

It conjures the mental image of a helicopter above the EU parliament breaking the roof and Boris getting pulled out of there mission impossible style

yeah "crashing out" is fine, that wont cause any undue panic... but "surrender act" will cause right wing death squads to descend on the streets

I wonder how much it would cost to get eurosceptic adverts and statements in printed media

The core issue is "do you want to be ruled by imperialists you cannot vote for or against?"

Sometimes feel like western society is like a fat bearded man in a dress with a winning lotto ticket who is happily exchanging it for a packet of crisps (chips)!

It's the kind of thing tbp should be up to atm, pro brexit publicity

it is crashing out

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

And the Benn act is a surrender

What is your point

If you don't like it, email your mep and tell them to support Boris compromise

Pro-tip meps are toothless, that's one reason the eu is a shit arrangement