#debate (Discord ID: 450683222653796353) in Imperium Political Simulator, page 3

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2018-05-28 17:28:11 UTC

you said yourself you arent allowed to sell for profit if you make your own wares

2018-05-28 17:28:18 UTC

Again, capitalism = private property + waged labour

2018-05-28 17:28:35 UTC

yes, and selling a duck toy for a profit is a wage

2018-05-28 17:28:41 UTC


2018-05-28 17:29:06 UTC

I love selling stuff

2018-05-28 17:29:26 UTC

Wage is what you get for work producing stuff you don't own

2018-05-28 17:29:35 UTC

ah of course

2018-05-28 17:29:40 UTC

so the service industry

2018-05-28 17:29:42 UTC

has no wages

2018-05-28 17:29:47 UTC

because they dont produce anything

2018-05-28 17:29:49 UTC

Service industry sucks

2018-05-28 17:29:58 UTC

psychologists dont have wages

2018-05-28 17:30:05 UTC

doctors dont have wages

2018-05-28 17:30:25 UTC

personal trainers dont have wages

2018-05-28 17:30:34 UTC

Of course they have

2018-05-28 17:30:45 UTC

Providing services = producing labor force

2018-05-28 17:30:50 UTC

wage is what you get for work producing stuff you don't own

2018-05-28 17:30:59 UTC

This Ukrainian has some pretty good English

2018-05-28 17:31:06 UTC

and some pretty bad logic

2018-05-28 17:31:15 UTC

Better than those fucking irish

2018-05-28 17:31:24 UTC

Their English is awful

2018-05-28 17:31:30 UTC

Nah, I feel that my English is shitty

2018-05-28 17:31:37 UTC

back to the topic

2018-05-28 17:31:44 UTC

you're a freelance psychologist

2018-05-28 17:31:50 UTC


2018-05-28 17:31:53 UTC

you work for a wage

2018-05-28 17:31:58 UTC

you own yourself

2018-05-28 17:32:03 UTC

you work only for yourself

2018-05-28 17:32:08 UTC

that is private

2018-05-28 17:32:10 UTC

and has a wage

2018-05-28 17:32:16 UTC

But you don't own the people you help

2018-05-28 17:32:19 UTC

your wage isnt earned while working for someone else

2018-05-28 17:32:24 UTC

You produce their mental health

2018-05-28 17:32:37 UTC

>you produce their mental health

2018-05-28 17:32:46 UTC

i have yet to hear something this retarded in my life

2018-05-28 17:32:56 UTC


2018-05-28 17:32:58 UTC

there is no production in services

2018-05-28 17:33:03 UTC


2018-05-28 17:33:14 UTC

production requires tangibility

2018-05-28 17:33:18 UTC


2018-05-28 17:33:37 UTC

Fron the POV of economy, producing stuff and providing services are the same

2018-05-28 17:33:54 UTC


2018-05-28 17:34:06 UTC

Producing stuff increases the number and quality of stuff

2018-05-28 17:34:22 UTC

Providing services increases the number and quality of labor force

2018-05-28 17:34:42 UTC

Labor force is a good too

2018-05-28 17:35:04 UTC

you produce nothing by telling a guy he has depression, who then pays you. And if you do, and he pays you and you earn a wage like that, the man who makes a duck doesnt own his customer either

2018-05-28 17:35:11 UTC

so he is by your definition the same

2018-05-28 17:35:29 UTC

aka a corporation, aka capitalistic

2018-05-28 17:36:31 UTC

You improve that guy's mental health, and then he can work better and make more stuff/provide more services, that's why you get paid

2018-05-28 17:37:06 UTC

The man who makes a duck on its own isn't earning a wage because he owns the duck

2018-05-28 17:37:12 UTC

A service is economically productive. There is a whole type of economy called the tertiary economy where the primary source of GDP is services, i.e., the developed world.

2018-05-28 17:37:22 UTC


2018-05-28 17:37:39 UTC

Simply because those services are not physically tangible doesn't make them irrelevant.

2018-05-28 17:38:13 UTC

@Advocatus Diaboli you owns the means to achieve the mental health

2018-05-28 17:38:15 UTC

You help improve that guy's mental health because you want to help people and you charge it because you need to earn a living your self.

2018-05-28 17:38:41 UTC

So, you want to help or you want to make money?

2018-05-28 17:38:54 UTC

once again

2018-05-28 17:38:58 UTC

You want to help and make money so you can live.

2018-05-28 17:39:00 UTC

stop the word masturbation

2018-05-28 17:39:07 UTC

you own the means to achieve the person's mental health

2018-05-28 17:39:08 UTC

A comfortable life.

2018-05-28 17:41:03 UTC

by the same logic, a lawyer helping a man to get out of legal trouble does not own the man, but he owns the knowledge to help him get out of legal trouble

2018-05-28 17:41:14 UTC

your allegories make no sense

2018-05-28 17:44:23 UTC

@Adoring Fan If I'm working for a hospital, I de jure temporarily lease my abilities to help people to the hospital (like it's not me helping, it's the hospital providing the service), that's the reason why people give the money to the hospital and then I'm getting paid by the hospital and that's a wage. If I'm a stand-alone psychologist, I alone own the means to cure the patient, but then the money I get is not a wage.

2018-05-28 17:44:52 UTC

yes it is

2018-05-28 17:45:05 UTC

legally speaking they are wages

2018-05-28 17:46:00 UTC

first you went to thinking that psychologists have wages, now they dont

2018-05-28 17:46:16 UTC

make up your fucking mind, tankie

2018-05-28 17:46:55 UTC


2018-05-28 17:48:00 UTC

the problem here is that you have no understanding of what you say, you merely try to fit everything into your perverted definitions of reality, so that you can apply reality to your worldview

2018-05-28 17:48:05 UTC

that is not how it works.

2018-05-28 17:48:08 UTC

and mind you

2018-05-28 17:48:10 UTC

even if it is

2018-05-28 17:48:14 UTC

like you say it is

2018-05-28 17:48:21 UTC

the soviet union still had wages

2018-05-28 17:48:35 UTC

now i know

2018-05-28 17:48:51 UTC

You miss the point

2018-05-28 17:48:57 UTC

youre going to say if youre a doctor earns wages in the ussr it's ok because he "owns the production"

2018-05-28 17:49:00 UTC

yet he doesnt

2018-05-28 17:49:05 UTC

How so?

2018-05-28 17:49:10 UTC

Sure he does

2018-05-28 17:49:10 UTC

he does only on papaer.

2018-05-28 17:49:13 UTC


2018-05-28 17:49:18 UTC

in practice he owns nothing

2018-05-28 17:49:29 UTC

this democratic ownership is a falsehood

2018-05-28 17:49:41 UTC

he can't take a machine from a hospital and put it in his own home

2018-05-28 17:49:41 UTC

That's what you think

2018-05-28 17:49:48 UTC

no that's what I know

2018-05-28 17:50:02 UTC

Yes he can't because he's not the only owner

2018-05-28 17:50:32 UTC

when everybody is the owner

2018-05-28 17:50:33 UTC

no one is

2018-05-28 17:50:37 UTC

The car is owned by all the people

2018-05-28 17:50:41 UTC


2018-05-28 17:50:56 UTC

That’s a paradoxical statement

2018-05-28 17:51:02 UTC

screaming "WHAT" while your soy is about to spill wont retract from the point that i made

2018-05-28 17:51:12 UTC

the car cant be owned by all people

2018-05-28 17:51:17 UTC

because people had locks

2018-05-28 17:51:25 UTC

you couldnt take another man's car

2018-05-28 17:51:32 UTC

you couldnt go into another man's house

2018-05-28 17:51:47 UTC

Ambulance car is public property owned by all people

2018-05-28 17:51:48 UTC

just because you *say* it was public, does not make it so

2018-05-28 17:51:57 UTC

it is owned by the state

2018-05-28 17:52:00 UTC

not by the people

2018-05-28 17:52:10 UTC

by the people is a fancy, populist phrase that people love to use

2018-05-28 17:52:11 UTC

And another man's car and house are PERSONAL, not private or public property

2018-05-28 17:52:14 UTC

it is not so in actuality

2018-05-28 17:52:23 UTC

In a true state of the people, it would be owned by the people.

2018-05-28 17:52:27 UTC


2018-05-28 17:52:31 UTC

ah of course

2018-05-28 17:52:32 UTC


2018-05-28 17:52:34 UTC

And it was in the USSR

2018-05-28 17:52:34 UTC

here we go

2018-05-28 17:52:38 UTC

not true communism

2018-05-28 17:52:40 UTC

as always

2018-05-28 17:52:46 UTC

word masturbation from post modernist idiots

2018-05-28 17:52:55 UTC

Pls differ socialism from communism

2018-05-28 17:53:06 UTC

Communism is stateless

2018-05-28 17:53:12 UTC

Social ownership

2018-05-28 17:53:27 UTC

well then the ussr wasnt communism

2018-05-28 17:53:30 UTC

now was it

2018-05-28 17:53:43 UTC

The USSR was socialist

2018-05-28 17:53:58 UTC


2018-05-28 17:54:17 UTC

I actually just got done explaining this in the fascist channel since these goys don't have a firm understanding of communism.

2018-05-28 17:54:32 UTC

On the other hand the USSR was not legitimate socialism. The worker was made a slave to the state.

2018-05-28 17:54:47 UTC

Just because something is publicly owned doesn't mean you really own it. Everything was subordinated to the state.

2018-05-28 17:55:03 UTC

The USSR was brutally repressive in all of the wrong ways and economically mismanaged itself into collapse.

2018-05-28 17:55:43 UTC

Please put in mind that Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev conducted economical reforms that disrupted the economy

2018-05-28 17:55:55 UTC

that is beside the point

2018-05-28 17:56:05 UTC

people were slaves to the state under lenin and stalin and trotsky

2018-05-28 17:56:20 UTC

>under trotsky

2018-05-28 17:56:38 UTC


2018-05-28 17:57:03 UTC

You can't make the whole population slaves whilst maintaining the most effective education system in the world

2018-05-28 17:57:15 UTC

>this level of delusion

2018-05-28 17:57:39 UTC

STFU nazi, you're not the one to talk about slavery

2018-05-28 17:57:43 UTC

The Soviet education system was "effective"? Holy fuck no it was not.

2018-05-28 17:58:20 UTC

1917 - 17% literacy
1957 - first artificial satellite

2018-05-28 17:58:25 UTC

It was effective at boosting literacy. Congrats the USSR achieved parity with the rest of the world. But the Soviet education system was marred by nepotism and rapid ideologism.

2018-05-28 17:58:46 UTC

Read The Truth That Killed by Georgi Markov to know what the Eastern Bloc was really like.

2018-05-28 17:58:49 UTC

You're crazy deluded.

2018-05-28 17:58:50 UTC

@Advocatus Diaboli stfu yourself faggot. There was no slavery under NatSocialism

2018-05-28 17:59:05 UTC


2018-05-28 17:59:16 UTC


2018-05-28 17:59:33 UTC

@Advocatus Diaboli non-citizens

2018-05-28 17:59:55 UTC

@εïз irma εïз I'm from Ukrainian teacher family, I know what I'm talking about

2018-05-28 17:59:58 UTC

USSR enslaved its own

2018-05-28 18:00:09 UTC

it sure doesnt seem like you do

2018-05-28 18:00:51 UTC

Enslaving anyone is bad, even non-citizens

2018-05-28 18:01:09 UTC

inb4 Gulag is a penal labour camp systm

2018-05-28 18:01:20 UTC

Slavery is wrong in general

2018-05-28 18:01:20 UTC

My parents lived in Hungary during the communist era.

2018-05-28 18:01:22 UTC

it was

2018-05-28 18:01:32 UTC

No man a slave

2018-05-28 18:01:48 UTC

heheh penal labor exists in the us checkmate its the exact same as the gulag system so you cant be critical

2018-05-28 18:01:52 UTC

What a shit argument.

2018-05-28 18:01:59 UTC
2018-05-28 18:02:05 UTC

It's a kind of punishment

2018-05-28 18:02:08 UTC

Nothing bad here

2018-05-28 18:02:11 UTC

so was slavery then

2018-05-28 18:02:13 UTC

here's the thing

2018-05-28 18:02:25 UTC

a criminal in the US can't be sent to prison for wrongthink

2018-05-28 18:02:29 UTC

Well Stalin used the penal labor system more for its labor than for penalizing people for committing crimes.

2018-05-28 18:02:34 UTC

@FLanon true

2018-05-28 18:02:39 UTC

it's completely different

2018-05-28 18:02:41 UTC


2018-05-28 18:02:42 UTC

the gulag was a sham

2018-05-28 18:02:52 UTC
2018-05-28 18:03:03 UTC

I'm reading and it's really good

2018-05-28 18:03:04 UTC

it was created fraudulently to mask the fact that they wanted slave labor

2018-05-28 18:03:05 UTC


2018-05-28 18:03:14 UTC

I've read it

2018-05-28 18:03:20 UTC


2018-05-28 18:03:22 UTC

they sent released prisoners of war to the gulags for forced labor

2018-05-28 18:03:26 UTC

but it's not slavery

2018-05-28 18:03:32 UTC

you read 1984 and you don't remember wrongthink

2018-05-28 18:03:36 UTC

Ever heard of filtration camps

2018-05-28 18:03:41 UTC

I’ve read it too and it’s exactly why I don’t want a fascist government

2018-05-28 18:03:46 UTC


2018-05-28 18:03:53 UTC

I can make 1984 look like a utopia

2018-05-28 18:03:55 UTC

Most fascists are not totalitarian.

2018-05-28 18:04:06 UTC

also 1984 was totalitarian

2018-05-28 18:04:08 UTC

irma is right

2018-05-28 18:04:12 UTC

I remember wrongthink, doublethink and so on

2018-05-28 18:04:17 UTC

fascism is not what 1984 was about

2018-05-28 18:04:20 UTC

Totalitarians are terrible

2018-05-28 18:04:25 UTC

1984 is closer to Stalinism than fascism by leaps and bounds.

2018-05-28 18:04:28 UTC


2018-05-28 18:04:31 UTC


2018-05-28 18:04:45 UTC

it specifically was written as a response to stalinism

2018-05-28 18:04:46 UTC

George Orwell was a socialist who was critical of the Soviet Union. And you think he was writing about fascism?

2018-05-28 18:04:51 UTC


2018-05-28 18:04:54 UTC

*1984* was specifically about fascism and its dangers.

2018-05-28 18:05:02 UTC

not fascism

2018-05-28 18:05:06 UTC

totalitarianism in general

2018-05-28 18:05:11 UTC

The Russians
persecuted heresy more cruelly than the Inquisition
had done. And they imagined that they had learned from
the mistakes of the past; they knew, at any rate, that one
must not make martyrs. Before they exposed their victims
to public trial, they deliberately set themselves to destroy
their dignity. They wore them down by torture and solitude
until they were despicable, cringing wretches, confessing
whatever was put into their mouths, covering themselves
with abuse, accusing and sheltering behind one another,
whimpering for mercy. And yet after only a few years the
same thing had happened over again. The dead men had
become martyrs and their degradation was forgotten. Once
again, why was it? In the first place, because the confessions
that they had made were obviously extorted and untrue. We
do not make mistakes of that kind. All the confessions that
are uttered here are true. We make them true. And above
all we do not allow the dead to rise up against us. You must
Free eBooks at Planet eBook.com 321
stop imagining that posterity will vindicate you, Winston.
Posterity will never hear of you. You will be lifted clean out
from the stream of history. We shall turn you into gas and
pour you into the stratosphere. Nothing will remain of you,
not a name in a register, not a memory in a living brain. You
will be annihilated in the past as well as in the future. You
will never have existed.’

2018-05-28 18:05:15 UTC

from the book

2018-05-28 18:05:33 UTC

specifically to stalinism however Orwell did also include hitler under the umbrella

2018-05-28 18:05:41 UTC

You added 'the Russians' to the beginning, admit it

2018-05-28 18:05:47 UTC

"Nineteen Eighty-Four uses themes from life in the Soviet Union and wartime life in Great Britain as sources for many of its motifs. Some time at an unspecified date after the first American publication of the book, producer Sidney Sheldon wrote to Orwell interested in adapting the novel to the Broadway stage. Orwell sold the American stage rights to Sheldon, explaining that his basic goal with Nineteen Eighty-Four was imagining the consequences of Stalinist government ruling British society:"

2018-05-28 18:05:47 UTC

1984 was ran like a socialist country but lead by totalitarians

2018-05-28 18:05:51 UTC

>wasnt about the soviet union

2018-05-28 18:06:01 UTC

@Advocatus Diaboli no you fucking retard

2018-05-28 18:06:07 UTC

page 320

2018-05-28 18:06:20 UTC

1984 and Animal Farm were written as allegorical pieces for the Soviet Union.

2018-05-28 18:06:25 UTC

Stop denying reality.

2018-05-28 18:06:32 UTC

this is what i am saying

2018-05-28 18:06:37 UTC

the communist has to bend reality

2018-05-28 18:06:41 UTC

to make himself correct

2018-05-28 18:06:49 UTC

Like Dr. strange

2018-05-28 18:06:54 UTC

tankies and the real world are oxymorons

2018-05-28 18:06:56 UTC


2018-05-28 18:06:59 UTC

*Animal Farm*, yes, but not *1984*.

2018-05-28 18:07:10 UTC

nigger read what i wrote @(Carbo)nMonoxide

2018-05-28 18:07:14 UTC

1984 was not specifically about Fascism.

2018-05-28 18:07:17 UTC

I really gotta read animal farm

2018-05-28 18:07:22 UTC

It’s about totalitarianism.

2018-05-28 18:07:34 UTC

Ok Nazis prepare your arguments for the next time because I have to go

2018-05-28 18:07:42 UTC

I am not a Nazi.

2018-05-28 18:07:42 UTC


2018-05-28 18:07:44 UTC

rage quit

2018-05-28 18:07:49 UTC

Appreciate the effort.

2018-05-28 18:07:55 UTC

go eat your stale salo, filthy communist

2018-05-28 18:08:07 UTC

Nazis and Commies both a subhuman filth to me

2018-05-28 18:08:16 UTC

okkk time to debate libertarianism

2018-05-28 18:08:20 UTC

Cool a libertarian.

2018-05-28 18:08:20 UTC

lets go

2018-05-28 18:08:21 UTC

Remember to join the Anglosphere Fascist Party

2018-05-28 18:09:21 UTC

1984 was about oligarchal collectivism.

2018-05-28 18:09:28 UTC


2018-05-28 18:09:30 UTC

@WildRooHuntingTutorials that sounds about right

2018-05-28 18:09:34 UTC

libertarianism relies on the idea that you have to have freedom in order to prosper

2018-05-28 18:09:41 UTC

I tend to disagree

2018-05-28 18:10:01 UTC

I think that freedom as a concept relies heavily on hedonism, which is in of itself not freedom

2018-05-28 18:10:16 UTC

libertarians want freedom from the state, i want freedom from urges and desires

2018-05-28 18:10:32 UTC

once you are free from your own weaknesses, only then are you actually free.

2018-05-28 18:10:52 UTC

>1984 borrowed themes directly from the soviet union
>orwells works are defined as being critical of the soviet union, as a socialist he was immensely critical of them
>"b-but its not as obvious as animal farm so it must be broad"

2018-05-28 18:11:03 UTC

Smallbrain hours?

2018-05-28 18:11:10 UTC

having the ability to smoke meth and get fucked by trannies is so wonderful, but i'd rather live without it

2018-05-28 18:11:27 UTC

The bantu claim that they were the same as the nomadic black tribesmen who SOMETIMES wander into southern africa because they are both african tribes.

2018-05-28 18:11:31 UTC

I'd say liberation from vice is preferable to liberation to fuck whatever you want or pump whatever substances in your body

2018-05-28 18:11:44 UTC


2018-05-28 18:12:03 UTC

@GucciToiletSalesman any comments?

2018-05-28 18:12:05 UTC

In terms of which is the better result for the common man and woman

2018-05-28 18:12:48 UTC

i guess not

2018-05-28 18:12:53 UTC

at least the communist tried

2018-05-28 18:34:46 UTC

So what are we talking about in here?

2018-05-28 18:38:20 UTC


2018-05-28 18:55:19 UTC

Sorry at a family function

2018-05-28 18:55:52 UTC

Im not a die hard libertarian but I'd love to talk to you more @Adoring Fan

2018-05-28 18:56:10 UTC

who a libtard

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