Rational self interest to me would be, someone smart enough to abuse the welfare system, because those idiots forcing welfare will give you free money that someone else earned for you

and why is taking responsibility for ones own life a bad thing?

the ultimate selfish ideology is libertarianism (or closer still, objectivism)

no because you are stealing money from someone else

I think everyone should keep their shit to themselves and be left alone

"virtue signalling" and "wanting to help for the sake of helping" can mingle together as one. I absolutely refuse to only ever think of myself. I do think about myself, of course. But that's not the only thing I think about.

so you are ultimately dependant on them.

no im not

I just don't prescribe to this idea that not being selfish is selfish.

Taxes.

you don't have to

No, dependant is not the word

if i don't need their money, but still take it, its for my benefit only

the welfare system needs an overhaul, there are SO MANY people on it that know how to play the system now, and keep people who actually work and pay taxes, struggling to pay their own shit

Personally interested

yes

A better title for that.

get rid of its non-essential parts

if you make helping people your goal, by pursuing it, you are being rationally self-interested.

omg, generational welfare is a think

thing*

A blanket-statement with little basis in reality.

abolish welfare.

GENERATIONAL WELLFARE take a wild guess what they vote?

so how in the hell is having people dependent on you for no reason other than they are lazy and are getting free money a selfless act

that yoru kids get welfare too

when you sit there and struggle to pay your bills and your rent and for your food and such, how is that selfless

it's not, that's being selfish

its selfish to pay your bills?

O.o

right, i'm off to bed, cuz this is just an endless cycle right now

you are being altruistic, the people dependent on you are ultimately looting from you.

that's them sucking you dry of money that coudl go into your childrens' mouths as food, that can cover them as clothing, that can shelter them as a house

Hello comrade I have a free helicopter ride for you

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE WON!

looting isn't altruistic, but it is a consequence of altruism.

it's not altruistic, you can'r choosing to help them, you are being forced to give them your money while taking from your children's quality of life, as well as your own

*aren't

Welfare is a fucked and abused system, for sure.

this is just become a cycle of Revolver saying people are selfless for wanting to make people dependent on them

and wanting to make the human race better is a selfish act

and everyone else disagreeing with him

and you are taxing people that work and barely bring anytihng in to feed a lazy woman who has like 6 kids

y'all need to read some Ayn Rand. Then, you will understand my position.

who won't go out and work but would rather have children to get more welfare and get a bigger baby bonus

no, your position is just blabbering a bad position

Welfare is likely one portion of the breakdown of the nuclear family, which leads to poverty, which leads to crime.

Ayn Rands Objectivism is like Communism

Looks good on paper, but human nature will never make it work

the only thing forcing people to pay into a welfare system does, is it leaves a whole generation of people worse off.

Abortions for some, small americian flags for others

I'm going to have to say that I've seen nothing so far to convince me. Just because it makes sense to you, that doesn't somehow mean that it _has_ to make sense for someone else.

but objectivism is designed for human nature

#kex2020

Go away Commisar Bob dole 😛

obviously not lol

i see your reference! 😛

I promise a 100% policy on all laws.

I'm objective, yeah. I'm just objective about the human race. I deem it to be more important than the one of me.

And I'm completely comfortable with that.

We must go forward, not backward, upward, not downward, and always twirlling TWIRLLING TOWARDS FREEDOM

=p

Jane Goodall talked about altrusim too with her group of Chimps that she was with, and what she was reffering to was the acts they preformed willingly to help another person in their group achieve something and then move on, such as helping a young chim make an instrument to get ants, and then left it at that.

I read twerking at first.

That works too

but you are a human, and the human race is just a compound group of humans, so you are basically saying that humans matter so humanity matters so therefore I don't matter.

human individuals matter

therefore i matter

In reality, if the Earth was to suddenly blow up, the universe would move on.

Why does it have to be an either/or thing?

The human race is the perfect race, and we can not slay the filthy xenos until we get our own little mud ball under control

Jayred put that better than revolver ocelot did.

I'm just being objective and realistic on a smaller scale that I can influence

We could be out there expanding humanity yo diffrent worlds no joke we could

ofc i did, i'm the one arguing for the rationale here

We could have a colony on mars if we didnt endlessly fight each other

The miricles we humans can do when were not holding each other back over such petty things like race and religon

also Tim, i'm so sorry for giving you like a 5000 message Newsroom here 😛

We turned a world that was mostly plants to one of stone and electricity and knwoeldge.

i'm gonna go to bed, you all have fun with your american time

cheerios

Why the FUCK cant we get a simple thing like this settled?

I am human. I am part of the human race. More humans matter than one human. If given an ultimatum where one human has to die, or all have to die, and I have ten seconds to decide, I choose the rest of the humans to live.

and if we keep having whole groups of people rely on one person or one thing, like welfare; we aren't going to get to colonize Marz

Compared to curing cancer compared to the other miricles of humanity

Welfare is nothing.

Not that it would be an easy choice

I know i know >.>

We can't get to the stars if our foundation is crumbling at our feet.

I agree, curing cancer and such would be better, and a lot of the money that gets needlessly dumped into welfare could go towards that.

And I'd hate it. But I'd realize that the human race was so much more important than that one human.

i just...sometimes feel like screaming at humanity as a whole we have such power but we never use it

Individual lives _are_ important.

We already cured one kind of cancer

But not at the cost of others.

Of the majority of others.

two technically if you consider the hpv vacine a cure

Well, one is more important than the other.

I'm not saying not to help anyone, I'm all for helping someoen who has had a horrid accident at work which has left them unable to work, I'm not for helping some lazy idiot who would rather claim he can't work and just suck me dry of my tax money.

^

Generational welfare exists

the HPV thing is not really so much a cure as it is just a test to see how far it is

people whom have fathers and grandefathers whom never finished school whom never worked

and have dozens of children

I never said that selfishness was about sacrificing others for yourself

far from it

HPV is a virus everyone has, but now there is a test to see if it's going rogue or not

And I never said that you said that.

oh I agree generational welfare exists

So I guess impasse.

I know fourth generational welfare recipents, i tried to help him learn to read

he was 25

but you are implying it

>my mind thinks something, therefore it is

yes

"I can read your mind, and know without making any investigations."

no I'm not, I'm not selfish and neither is anyone else who wants to put food into their own kids mouths instead of paying for some idiot on welfare to get another dime bag or grab another 6 pack, or even just to pay for his mersedes payment

and no, it's not Altruism, because paying for that shit has to be willingly done, not forced to do it

well just from your previous statements you are talking about choosing between sacrificing 1 person and the rest of humanity, I'm assuming that the person is you because otherwise that choice would be trivial.

But anyway, this really is just a cycle of "my opinion", then "your opinion." I have no idea what logical conclusions you've come to to decide what you've decided, but I'll probably leave you to it here pretty soon.

Oh yeah, if I had to be sacrificed, then fuck yeah

Sign me up

If the alternative is everyone else

Its not just my opinion, I am giving my rationale and you are rejecting it.

"My rationale"

"My"

"Accept my opinion as I dress it up as irrefutable fact!"

no you aren't

"You don't see it as fact? But I cannot fathom!"

you are trying to guilt people into accepting that Altrusim's definition is to be leeched off ot

*of

and it's not

and it isn't working

no, altruism's definition is to allow yourself to be leeched off of.

no it's not

because it neccessitates a sacrifice.

it's definition is to willingly help a person

you are the one not wanting to see it for what it truly is and are trying to force people to see it your way.

but who says that a society can't be altruistic but the people not?

Basically, what I was trying to get at is this: if I have to sacrifice for the good of humanity, sign me up. I don't even care if I'm being leeched off of, it's a purposeful leeching I fully consent to. And if the situation were to ever arise, I would never, in a _million years_ think of only myself. I'd be apprehensive as all hell, but I wouldn't _not_ sacrifice.

if you force a person to pay for someone and have them be dependent on you, it's not Altruism

I'm giving a part of myself to something I believe in.

And that's the part absolutely no one could ever take away from me.

In any concievable situation.

The part of me _wanting_ to make changes for the betterment of my kind.

but you are included in your kind

so you still are not performing a sacrifice.

"One of us suffers, so all of us must suffer"

It sounds a lot like naivety.

> wants to not be a degenerate
> is degenerate

same

>>

I make the choice. And in the end, no one's going to take that choice away from me if the need ever arises.

as Aristotle famously said, things are what they are, not what we want them to be.

go ahead

I'm going to have to direct you to the same quote.

I support your choice

I feel like you _want_ there not to be tough choices like that, and a bigger picture to consider. If someone wants to live for themselves, they can go right on ahead. Otherwise, the sacrifice and other sacrifices will have been for nothing.

but what if the society neccessitates sacrifice? like with the welfare system? they can't live for themself.

then they need to be taught how to live on their own

fuck off

they will die and you know it

you are undermining the purpose and value of division of labour

you can't just expect people to continuously pay for them, and then when the peopel who they relied on dy out, they will be left alone and they will die too because they don't know how to do anything for themselves

it's not a permanent solution

you cant just devolve society back to individuals

Again, it goes back to this. People need to become more independant, and be able to stand on their own two feet.

i agree completely

er

I'm pretty sure that was argued for earlier.

which if the human race expects to get anywhere, they will start by starting to cut people off of welfare that have nothing wrong with them

that is why I'm advocating for people to become selfish.

its not selfish to build a career

rationally selfish people do not rely on or exploit others.

yes it is

no it's not

and you knwo it

the rest of society depends on it

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you there. It's a fucked and doomed-to-fail system if everyone only ever thinks of themselves

it's selfish to sit there and take their tax money

for the government maybe

and when I got here, you were telling people that beingforced to be someone's personal bank account was a selfless act

which it's not

The world is already feeling that effect. People just waltz on by homeless people all the time. Little to no empathy.

but its not rational, because eventaully the money will dry up

@Enigmus most walk by because they can't help, because they can barely afford to feed themselves despite working

Keyword

"Most"

look, if you wanted to sum up what I want politically: 1. complete deregulation of markets 2. disolution of the welfare state 3. Massive reduction in taxes and the size of the state in general

The human race will devolve quite a lot if everyone only ever thought of themselves. We'd devolve into a savage and awful race if literally everyone took to their own devices, and were so short-sighted as to think that only their goals and interests mattered, because they're them, not other people.

Just look at the human race today

Loooots of selfishness

Oh lookey, warlords in Africa

Oh hey, Adolf, how do you do?

do you really think to think short term is to be selfish?

Mighty fine day out, isn't it, Stalin?

I'm saying that if you only ever think of yourself, you're selfish

By literal definition

if you were to do what you wanted, no one would be able to afford anything, not ot mention there would be no rule in what is a market and what isn't

slavery was a free and open market without regulation

look how that turned out

also, I'd like to point out that Hitler and Stalin were the two biggest advocates of sacrifice in the 20th century.

yes, and Hitler and Stalin were nutters

yes but slavery undermines peoples rights to life, and I already stated earlier that the most important thing is individual rights.

🎵 One of these things is not like the other!~ 🎵

because they coudln't see past the noses on their faces when it came to that

individual rights were a thing back then too, it still happened

because there were no laws or regulations on the markets and what could and could not be a good or service

but don't you see how it was people's willingness to be altruistic and give themselves up to the state that enabled them?

People can live selfishly if they want to. But when they go about, trying to tell me to be selfish, I have a problem.

yeah, slaves gave themselves up willingly to be slaves!

OMG LMFAO!!!!! WOW

I was talking about hitler

but ok

look, going to be real honest

there was fear mongering and coercion, and down right threats

I can tell you that a lot of the men on the battlefield and even in the SS did NOT want to be there

they were forced to

^

Something looked past a lot when condemning "Nazis"

so it's not Altruistic in the slightest

but I'm talking about before that

before they came into power

In fact, not standing up to hitler and being afraid of dying for going against him, and going along with what was happening, doesn't that sound a bit selfish by this logic? So in this particular case, selfishness prevented action which could've resulted in less people dying.

before that, he wasn't talking about killing people, he was talking about having Germany be apart of the modern world again, when Germany had been forced to sign a declaration stating that they would never hold an army nor amass troops, essentially leaving thme defenceless

Saying and doing are two different things.

how about read a bit of history

When you're paralyzed with fear for both yourself, and your family, you tend to not think "rationally."

Technically speaking, World War II was just World War 1: Part 2.

When the dust settles, hindsight is 20/20

^

Yeah, I'm just using the logic/rationale, that's all.

look, I know about the treaty of Versailles

but the altruism still persists in World war 1

no it didn't

people were forced to war then too by conscription

what do you call thousands of men sacrificing themselves on the battlefield?

"Drafts"

Victims.

and a small group of leaders used their citizens as the weapons and not by the citizen's choice mind you

victims is a good word

@JadenFrostwolf lol exactly

victims of altruism

they did not choose to be there

no, that's not what he meant and you know it

you definition of Altruism is really warped dude

Victims of the leaders of a bunch of governments that wouldn't just talk things out and decided to make central Europe into a big meat grinder and toss their young men into it before coming to reason.

I know, he meant that there was no reason for them to be there, just like how there's no reason for anything. There's no reason why we should have rights, we just do, right?

There are reasons. But past our atmosphere, they're inconsequential.

the reasons why communism fails are inconsequential too, right?

Literally everything past our planet.

but we aren't talking about things past our planet, we are talking about human beings being sacrificed here.

weo don't just have rights, rights have come about through science and experience, not to mention out of baser instincts lol