as Aristotle famously said, things are what they are, not what we want them to be.

go ahead

I'm going to have to direct you to the same quote.

I support your choice

I feel like you _want_ there not to be tough choices like that, and a bigger picture to consider. If someone wants to live for themselves, they can go right on ahead. Otherwise, the sacrifice and other sacrifices will have been for nothing.

but what if the society neccessitates sacrifice? like with the welfare system? they can't live for themself.

then they need to be taught how to live on their own

fuck off

they will die and you know it

you are undermining the purpose and value of division of labour

you can't just expect people to continuously pay for them, and then when the peopel who they relied on dy out, they will be left alone and they will die too because they don't know how to do anything for themselves

it's not a permanent solution

you cant just devolve society back to individuals

Again, it goes back to this. People need to become more independant, and be able to stand on their own two feet.

i agree completely

er

I'm pretty sure that was argued for earlier.

which if the human race expects to get anywhere, they will start by starting to cut people off of welfare that have nothing wrong with them

that is why I'm advocating for people to become selfish.

its not selfish to build a career

rationally selfish people do not rely on or exploit others.

yes it is

no it's not

and you knwo it

the rest of society depends on it

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you there. It's a fucked and doomed-to-fail system if everyone only ever thinks of themselves

it's selfish to sit there and take their tax money

for the government maybe

and when I got here, you were telling people that beingforced to be someone's personal bank account was a selfless act

which it's not

The world is already feeling that effect. People just waltz on by homeless people all the time. Little to no empathy.

but its not rational, because eventaully the money will dry up

@Enigmus most walk by because they can't help, because they can barely afford to feed themselves despite working

Keyword

"Most"

look, if you wanted to sum up what I want politically: 1. complete deregulation of markets 2. disolution of the welfare state 3. Massive reduction in taxes and the size of the state in general

The human race will devolve quite a lot if everyone only ever thought of themselves. We'd devolve into a savage and awful race if literally everyone took to their own devices, and were so short-sighted as to think that only their goals and interests mattered, because they're them, not other people.

Just look at the human race today

Loooots of selfishness

Oh lookey, warlords in Africa

Oh hey, Adolf, how do you do?

do you really think to think short term is to be selfish?

Mighty fine day out, isn't it, Stalin?

I'm saying that if you only ever think of yourself, you're selfish

By literal definition

if you were to do what you wanted, no one would be able to afford anything, not ot mention there would be no rule in what is a market and what isn't

slavery was a free and open market without regulation

look how that turned out

also, I'd like to point out that Hitler and Stalin were the two biggest advocates of sacrifice in the 20th century.

yes, and Hitler and Stalin were nutters

yes but slavery undermines peoples rights to life, and I already stated earlier that the most important thing is individual rights.

🎵 One of these things is not like the other!~ 🎵

because they coudln't see past the noses on their faces when it came to that

individual rights were a thing back then too, it still happened

because there were no laws or regulations on the markets and what could and could not be a good or service

but don't you see how it was people's willingness to be altruistic and give themselves up to the state that enabled them?

People can live selfishly if they want to. But when they go about, trying to tell me to be selfish, I have a problem.

yeah, slaves gave themselves up willingly to be slaves!

OMG LMFAO!!!!! WOW

I was talking about hitler

but ok

look, going to be real honest

there was fear mongering and coercion, and down right threats

I can tell you that a lot of the men on the battlefield and even in the SS did NOT want to be there

they were forced to

^

Something looked past a lot when condemning "Nazis"

so it's not Altruistic in the slightest

but I'm talking about before that

before they came into power

In fact, not standing up to hitler and being afraid of dying for going against him, and going along with what was happening, doesn't that sound a bit selfish by this logic? So in this particular case, selfishness prevented action which could've resulted in less people dying.

before that, he wasn't talking about killing people, he was talking about having Germany be apart of the modern world again, when Germany had been forced to sign a declaration stating that they would never hold an army nor amass troops, essentially leaving thme defenceless

Saying and doing are two different things.

how about read a bit of history

When you're paralyzed with fear for both yourself, and your family, you tend to not think "rationally."

Technically speaking, World War II was just World War 1: Part 2.

When the dust settles, hindsight is 20/20

^

Yeah, I'm just using the logic/rationale, that's all.

look, I know about the treaty of Versailles

but the altruism still persists in World war 1

no it didn't

people were forced to war then too by conscription

what do you call thousands of men sacrificing themselves on the battlefield?

"Drafts"

Victims.

and a small group of leaders used their citizens as the weapons and not by the citizen's choice mind you

victims is a good word

@JadenFrostwolf lol exactly

victims of altruism

they did not choose to be there

no, that's not what he meant and you know it

you definition of Altruism is really warped dude

Victims of the leaders of a bunch of governments that wouldn't just talk things out and decided to make central Europe into a big meat grinder and toss their young men into it before coming to reason.

I know, he meant that there was no reason for them to be there, just like how there's no reason for anything. There's no reason why we should have rights, we just do, right?

There are reasons. But past our atmosphere, they're inconsequential.

the reasons why communism fails are inconsequential too, right?

Literally everything past our planet.

but we aren't talking about things past our planet, we are talking about human beings being sacrificed here.

weo don't just have rights, rights have come about through science and experience, not to mention out of baser instincts lol