#general (Discord ID: 463054787336732683) in Subverse, page 417
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I've been convincing my friends slowly but surely not to depend on things like Twitter, and to use free alternatives, and some even to use Linux
I don't see any other solution. But it's not very popular here.
Online Public Space providers would need restrictions. Cuz you can't just hang out on a street corner online.
"internet bill of rights" needs to have an organized push, not just a bunch of detached people advocating for it
these tubers know eachother
I got so many ideas, so many opinions, and so many suggestions. Was taught it isn't wrong to throw ideas out there, because if we didn't do that, we wouldn't progress as a society.
This was voted up on KIA yesterday.
Learn to use cryptocurrencies, get off of facebook, and become less dependant on twitter. Also, we need some concrete internet bill of rights.
they could easily write something up together
Evidently, Josh Smith (whom I've never heard of) has been working on this for awhile.
Have you guys notice that Wikipedia is being altered?
By the liberals to suit their arguments?
The "cultural Marxism" article is the best example IMO.
I've seen some scary stuff going on at wikimedia
The parent of wikipedia
like Wizard of Cause is running for Office in his State. We need more like him pushing this
You're on an actual Liberal's discord and you're calling the progressives liberals
Only term I mentioned the word... uh... it is a habit I am trying to break.
Some seriously bad extreme social justice has been permiating wikimedia
Since I know there is two terms of liberals... moderate liberals and classical liberals (Closer to actual real liberals.) So I been trying to break that habit.
I'm also Liberal and agree with Tim on a shockingly *large amount of things, so I personally am very annoyed by that conflation
"cultural marxism" went from tracing the line of thought from Marcuse and the Frankfurt school to "a conspiracy theory peddled by alt-right consipriacy theorists like Jordan Peterson"
And then it lost it's page.
liberals have always been misrepresented in american terminology
That guy's smug fucking face the whole time made me unreasonably angry
Let me find the story
Found it a long time ago
But yea people need to make an organized push for the "internet bill of rights"
He's like that fucking kid in school who laughs at everything that goes wrong for everyone and then when you try and react he goes to a teacher and cries and whines.
Care to link to what is on the "internet bill of rights"
dont just say "hey guys heres an idea"
I've seen several proposals. The most famous being a coutner legislation by AT&T against Google during the NN debate a couple years ago.
Public square has a nice history to it. Prager attempted it as an argument when he sued Google.
You think we can get an internet bill of rights when fucking "front hole" is a thing?
He made a joke, he explained in his video that it was a joke. England's Judge basically did a Banana republic court on him. They acted like judge, jury, and execution against him. Even the Crown Persecutor said that the court he was prosecuted was illegal in its ruling and actions. Regardless if you hate him or not, he had his rights as a British citizen infringed upon by the British government.
Then there's the proposal I just posted.
@Beef Taquitos yes. If something happens fast it might be able to make it to Congress before they all break.
Wait... I might be wrong, I might be conflaging two things together.
yea there is multiple proposals
I was thinking about two people.
thats part of the problem
The Republicans control congress and I have to think they're getting more than a little scared and insulted over this whole thing.
My bad... I take back my statement.
its not a unified effort
The sides get more extreme. I've always seen it as "each and every action has an equal and opposite reaction". There's more people being woken up, but at the same time, there's a lot more people falling for this bs
Yeah I realized that after I posted it.
But it is still wrong how the government treated him.
yeah just specifying which ones you mixed up
They didn't consider context of his joke, then treated him wrong.
Regardless who he is and how much you hate him, they did do him wrong.
Yeah, it's sad that this non-justice is so common we're able to mix up instances of them
@Lagomaster24 I agree. there's too much fragmentation. But that's a sign people are considering this stuff. It's actually a good sign assuming someone gets something together.
miscarriage of justice UK
its a start
Still wondering what you have in mind with the internet bill of rights.
So glad I don't live in the uk
I really want to network and work for a unified effort with some of these guys
tbh at the moment i havent gotten anything written up
Personally, I like the idea of tying common carriage requirements to protection from tort.
partly because i want to share ideas with others on it
i also dont KNOW everything that could potentially be included
Honestly, at this point, I'm of the belief it's too late to write up something new *unless* you are well connected with lawmakers.
my main thing is protecting the First Amendment aspect
Can agree. but you don't have to know everything.
yea i want to network with law makers
I'm all for common carriage type regulations. Google, Reddit, Facebook, Netflix, et al pushed Net Neutrality. I think they can eat their own medicine.
Write your congressperson I guess
I don't think it would have that much impact through.
in the middle of a mid term so not yet lol
depends on how close i can get to them during the campaign
I'm hanging around places like this hoping to get enough people on a common proposal to make a mass campaign.
from the grassroots.
I think waiting for the miderm campaigns is probably too late.
Unless we want the dems making the legislation.
we do have sane dems oddly enough
And considering how close they seem to be pushing censorship, I don't really trust them.
we just have to highlight them
Yeah, but the leadership and the think tanks aren't.
thats the main problem
Media matters and Shareblue are the ones really pushing the fake news angle.
I think we need to get ahead of them.
its a matter of how
I was highly skeptical about the massive mainstream push to keep net neutrality. A friend of mine who was a lawyer told me that it would give more regulation control to the gov't, and from what I had seen, it seemed to be that way. I'm still undecided on the whole net neutrality thing.
They *will* pass legislation if the get power. And I'd bet it would be outright fascistic (in the true definition--government and corporations colluding to seize collective power through censorship and law)
I think the internet bill of rights should mirror our bill of rights in the way, but adopted to use for internet.
Right to free exchange of ideas without being isolation or prosecution
Right to free expression without fearing for your life
Right to free speech without the fear of censorship
Right to creative enterprise without the fear of being coarse, intimidated, or shutdown
Right to own your own wealth without loosing it due to third parties
Right to free press without fear of being coarse, intimidated, or blackmailed
I mean i could start posting publicly tomorrow about something but idk what kinda impact that might have
It needs work, but something like that.
on the first one
@Termer I like Pai's stance actually. It's a good philosophy but the NN legislation as written and passed was a huge power grab that could be too easily abused.
isolated or persecuted*
Also, look into the Internet Bill of Rights proposed by AT&T. calling for an internet bill of rights will certainly be conflated with their proposal.
Basically we hammer it down so there is no wiggle room for misinterruptation by the social media, government, and mainstream news.
also look at the post I made earlier from KiA.
We have to keep moving, we can't stagnate due to fear of getting it wrong.
@Timcast What is your opinion on the internet bill of rights idea? Should we allow regulation which off-chance government can use regulations to control what we see, say, or do? Or should we go towards creating a bill of rights that could allow us to form a agreement with the government and social media corporations that they will allow us these rights, if they infringe upon these rights, they become open to being held accountable to the laws of the nation?
Yeah. We're really late to the punch. Really late.
And Warner is already drafted up what he wants to do to fight 'fake news.' Very scary stuff from a privacy standpoint.
The bill of rights for internet in my opinion should in some way allow us to hold social media and government accountable when they infringe upon the right agreed upon. They won't loose control of their websites and corporations, but they will be held accountable if they infringe our rights.
If you wanted to name it, it depends on who you're presenting it to
I really think regulations isn't the way to go.
For example if you were aiming a press release at the public you could call it a universal shitposting license
In congress you could probably call it something like the Anti Censorship Bill
Or the Internet Freedom Bill
thats pretty american
I think European draft idea is designed to milk the social media corporations and foreign citizens for all their worth in money. The way they phrase it scares me.
Pay for links?
I'd love to help with/sign an internet bill of rights
Are you kidding me, people would stop posting links anymore.
Linking should be legal without exception
I hate how websites like TPB are outlawed
because all they carry is links
That one stood out to me, because all it is... they are trying to making it impossible to link while gaining as much money they can from it.
I notice a lot that the European union are trying to get as much money they can from Social Media companies, making the taxpayers from foreign nations pay for it all.
I'd be very scared if linking to things was an offense, because I run a URL shortener
and I could get in serious trouble if someone, say, created a redirect to cp
Linking/redirecting should carry no liability
It's a very scary world, I don't need liability to what I *link* to
Well that is what they are trying to do.
I have grown so much distain towards the European Union as of late.
plus, the destination of a link can vary, so if linking to illegal material were illegal, then an easy act of sabotage would be to make a link to legitimate content, then change it to something illegal
They are becoming authoritative towards the nations under their umbrella and attacking nations outside that umbrella, namely United States in bid to force them to comply to what they want them to do.
I feel bad for nations like Britain for example.
If I lived in Britain, I'd be fleeing. It can only get worse from here.
European Union started out as a Trade Agreement...
There was nothing about the nations under it's umbrella giving up their sovereignty.
In addition to what you're allowed to do, there's also the matter of surveilence
People seem to confuse the European Union and United Nations as one.
Which can't be further from the truth.
Britain and the USA have deep data harvesters installed in Internet exchange stations and ISP datacenters
United Nations is a group of nations that came together to push back against encroaching Soviet Union.
News Flash... Soviet Union is dead and why should we keep United Nations together?
I think we should dissolve it and put up treaties in its place.
Agreements between nations...
I think you're confusing UN with NATO
European Union and United Nations is nothing but centralizing power. Centralized powers always become corrupt.
The general effect of the EEC, is that the strong nations get brought down, and the weaker nations get a little economic boost
I mean Nato.
And European Union.
NATO stays so that the US can continue to maintain its status as the World Hegemon
My point does still stand... centralized power will end up corrupted always and it will be abused to bully the weaker nations.
No unified European military is required if they have the US backing them up
Nations that try to pull away, always get attacked by the centralized powers that want to keep them under their control.
Look what happen to Britain.
Without them and the USSR, the US stays as the world hegemon. Having a single hegemon is the best situation in terms of stability.
I notice once United States started to get weaken, all hell broke loose.
Wait ten years and see what happens
Europe wants their own army and isnt scared of russia at all
You mean Britain?
No, Europe as a whole
They want a unified European Military to replace NATO
There would be too much red tape, Europe will crumble before they can attack Russia.
Nations often unify as a centralized entity for wartime, but often cause trouble when they don't decentralize again. We can see this in many cases throughout history
There are two reasons to consolidate military power: defense and conquest
Only way that would happen if they dissolve all sovereignty of the nations under its umbrella and take control of all assets available.
They're already doing that
Free movement zone eliminates control over who they let in
I always found that free movement idea to be stupid.
EU court is above all nation courts
All it takes is one nation out of all them to led bad actors in...
What is going to stop them from moving to your nation?
A good way to understand the good intentions of centralized government is to read the federalist papers
The road to hell is paved in good intentions.
But the unforseen consequences come later, mostly after war
When it's not needed as much
Centralizing power always ends up corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolute.
So many quotes from founding fathers and influential figures really hit home on the issues.
That is why history is important in my eyes.
I actually take issue with the ratification of the constitution (of course not all of it), but the previous constitution was pretty good, other than the inability to unify for war
There is one good thing about these clashes... it is forcing people to research.
There is a silver-lining in everything.
I just hope we learn from it before it is too late.
I think all americans should draw their own conclusions from the strife that came from the constitution
Have I been a good debater? Think I fit in here?
I'd say you've been a good debater
It has been a while since I debated...
I feel rusty.
It is hard to find an healthy debate lately thanks to the atmosphere as of lately.
I've always found that there are places where you can be honest, but not usually in the public
I got into a debate with an Antifa member... he plugged his ears to all evidence I showed him and kept calling me a Nazi sympathizer. :\
I've never had the chance to really be in the field
He used all caps and insulted me, calling me names and accusing me being racist/fascists.
EU is trying to be a Federation when it can only really function as a Confederation imo
Well I wasn't there in person, it was over the internet.
There are always people like that
If you look in newsroom youll find a vox article
In another server someone posted it and said "if you dont support this you are a lowkey fascist and high key asshole"
OMG vox... those people are so freaking bias. I take everything they say with a grain of salt. I can trust them as far as I throw them, which isn't far because I can't physically pick them up.
Followed by "im not willing to entertain any arguments against it"
I can't stand when people ignore arguments
and not refute them
I have one website that I have protected that allows me to debate.
if you can refute my argument and give me a better one, *I will change my mind*
I am very hesitate to introduce people to it.
What do you mean, do you own it?
No... it is a website I treasure.
All forms of debate ranging from conspiracy theories to United States politics.
Basically people can debate about what they want.
I like that.
Very few new members who are very hysterical, but they are usually ignored for actual people who debate.
It sets itself up as a conspiracy theory website, but it actually holds a lot of debates.
I think that basically makes it the perfect place.
@Timcast Oh for the original reason I came here. Thanks Tim for trying to be the unbiased voice in the sea of bias voices with agendas.
Tim genuinely cares about his work and I appreciate that
True. He also admits he doesn't have all the answers
Which I appreciate
I appreciate it too. It is hard to find voices like him who puts aside his political views to report the news.
Doesn't mean he has to get rid of them, but he sets them aside to give us the objective facts.
Have any of you heard about that EU senator who wants to ban encryptions?
Sounds like he is all about control.
He doesn't like the fact he can't control something that has a encryptions.
Also that opens his nation up to being attacked by foreign nations, because it will allow foreign militaries to monitor communications between their nation's forces.
Unless he only wants to ban it for private sector.
God the EU makes me sick
Good luck to you boys in Europe, I'm just gonna stay stateside
The UN makes me sick
Get on my level
Actually not sick
UN and EU both feel like they becoming authoritative in nature.
a little late for that language
Don't forget the most egregious example of all time: https://78.media.tumblr.com/3533c513e07072f7ea942c53dc84f54a/tumblr_nslilh8JCx1u0rseao5_r1_540.gif
SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME
ALL YOUR BASE BASE BASE ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
FOR GREAT JUSTICE, TAKE OFF EVERY ZIG
https://twitter.com/StarAdvertiser/status/1032132757973946368 Well lads this is going to be "fun"
yeah that sucks for sure
anyone here in HI?