#general (Discord ID: 463054787336732683) in Subverse, page 413
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>Middle class women have been driving the resistance.
Really makes you ponder women's suffrage
I'd argue it was #MeToo.
They've basically re-written alot of the Democratic party at this point.
Didn't the political divide map closest to guns?
It's also heavily decided by population density.
that would be authoritarian vs libertarian
many gun owning liberals
Guns are a true urban/rural issue.
Also didn't white wahmen get Trump elected?
many reasons trump got elected
Not in total.
I remember him scoring remarkably well within certain age groups
2016 = Hilary beat herself
2020 = people vote for trump
Mostly voter turnout was low, which favors Republicans.
So glad Harmful is back
Rural people (liberals included) tend to see guns as key tools for fending against animals and potential attackers.
Urbanites (conservatives included) see guns purely as a weapon for crime.
Which is interesting because there are more human attackers in the cities
A theory I like is that rural living tends to make people self-reliant. Urban living makes people dependent.
people in citys have a stronger force acting on them than self preservation
So when you're at risk of being attacked, rural people will tend to ask what they might do to protect themselves. Urbanites will tend to ask what it would take to get someone else to take care of them.
besides the government doesent get to spend your tax money on defending you if you can defend yourself
The problem there is that the latter isn't really feasible
Government generally doesn't defend you. Government cleans up the mess afterwards.
Feasibility doesn't matter. Appearance of Feasibility does.
The government doesn't defend you in the present tense. The government tries to disincentivize attacking you and tries to punish your attacker
See but that's where we get into the cognitive dissonance
The argument makes some sense. IF the attacker cannot get a gun THEN they cannot attack you with said gun.
Wherein the left hates both cops and self defense
Or at least the most efficient method of self defense
The weakness is that the government doesn't actually tend to succeed at stopping people.
That argument tends to lead to spoon licenses.
police CAN work
But if you accept the premise, the logic is sound. And the government can at least make it harder for law abiding people and reduce the number in circulation.
But in practice, guns still find their ways into the hands of gangs and the like.
Police can work in some ways yes
but modern police dont work
Like in Chicago, where handguns are banned and nobody gets killed with handguns.
But they cannot defend you
Even in places with gun bans.
It's infeasible unless you live close enough to a station
Or a cop happens to be in the area
theres actually no reason for the militarization of police, if you really think about the weapons police are facing, they havent really changed in lethality since ww2
Police help. It is a deterrent if nothing else. And the law must have a lawman in charge of enforcing it. Or it's pointless.
They've arguably become worse
I wish liberals would stop focusing on HOW people are killing each other and focus instead on WHY people are killing each other. They'd probably have lots of good ideas for tackling that problem. They're much better suited for solving issues of motivation than conservatives.
In the 40s you could own military weaponry
And then in the 60s and 80s they started walking shit back
Kennedy & Reagan.
Complete knee-jerk reaction too, as laws passed wouldn't have stopped the assassins.
That's how most regulation tends to work, TBH.
Like obviously there are still people who get ahold of modern automatics and shit, but for the most part cops deal with handguns afaik
There was a famous case where some bank robbers got some rather high-quality weapons and some high-grade body armor and went absolutely ballistic.
Automatic weapons, whether legally owned or illegally modified, are exceptionally rare in crimes.
That spooked the police forces into arming up.
But I'm also not in agreement with those people who seem to always seem to assume fault with LEOs
Well there aren't many people who can legally own automatic weapons
It's mostly handguns, sawed-off shotguns, etc. But again that's focusing on HOW instead of WHY.
As per last century's legislation rush
And those who do own collectors items and relics lol
I think the actual driver of the militarization of the police is Iraq.
Left alot of spare military equipment no one could really use so the DOD offloaded it cheap.
And I'm not sure that's necessarily *too* bad on it's own.
That seems feasible yeah
A lot of grants were issued for that sort of thing. Basically "Here's half a million bucks for your department, but you have to spend it on surplus"
I think the main issue re:cops is the lack of connection with the community, probably at least in part due to the severe lack of community to connect to
^ The real issue.
And one that I think libertarians in particular don't recognize, understand or plan to fix.
drinking and thinking
Even though it's probably a major driver of the expansion of government.
I plan to fix it, but I can only do it on a local level really
vanilla rum and coke is actually quite delicioso my duded
These are choices people have to make for themselves
almost threw up in my mouth
It's a great place in which liberals could apply their strengths but they fixate on guns instead of the social issues. Probably because they're embarrassed about the social issues.
It's a major weakness we are approaching as the country becomes more secular IMO.
I'm sorry i have only had one glass
Vanilla rum and coke but i usually fill it halfway with rum before i add the coke
Yeah I think the problem is that people became obsessed with tearing down structures, and ignored why they were there
Which isn't just a secular problem mind
Dawkins said something about that recently if I recall.
All trad structures got attacked, but rather than building up more open, contemporary systems people just splintered
Harris promotes spirituality
Hitchens was big on community and duty
I have a question friends
Nobody wondered why every people, tribe, civilization, etc, had religious institutions. They all assumed it was a big coinkydink
Would it be worth my time to buy mein kampf
barnes and noble sells it
The left actually has been creating local organizations. Look up We for example.
Just Gutenberg it
Like has there ever been an atheist tribe anywhere?
The right had it with churches and things like 4H.
But the elites [e.g. University admissions] in society actually discriminate against people in things like the Boy Scouts.
Old school men's clubs.
There are secular groups
There's not really a group of people who don't believe in shit explicitly outside of maybe conventions
I'd actually say the re-creation of middle america is the most important project for the right right now. If it can quit being so extremely libertine long enough to do it.
You'll just find higher concentrations of the nonreligious in various areas
god this alcohol is making me feel weird
Proud Boys were started with the idea of building a new men's club but that didn't exactly turn out well.
The Rand Paul healthcare amendment actually has historical precedents in things like the Knights of Columbus.
Stop drinking and have some water m8
alcohol N O E
1 glass of water per drank my dude
American Legion, Rotary Clubs, The Lions...all these groups are increasingly graying and dying.
1 beer, 1 water, 1 rum and coke, 1 water. Avoid dehydration
Within a week of hearing about a local Proud Boys chapter I heard that they all lost their jobs and it shut down.
Or just vomit it all out.
i hate vomiting
comes out my nose
I've actually been having a lot of fun with HEMA and am meeting some neat people through that
Incl. some fellow libertarians
@Atkins yeah, that's the strategy of the left. Destroy any kind of counter organizations they can.
I love destroying
Historical European Martial Arts. Longswords and single stick and shit
Oh. A social group.
A sports organization, effectively
I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like the Lions when thinking of middle American society.
Yeah I guess MMA groups would be kinda the new men's clubs.
Essentially alot of charity and local imporvement
Yeah I've seen a lot of martial arts places pop up
Pain & violence would keep the womenfolk away.
does alcohol make you feel hot
Think of how you need to build a bridge or something to get an Eagle Scout.
Oh there's still wahmen, just fewer
like temperature wise
And yeah I get what you mean, and I agree
Shit like neighborhood watches and such
If there's a lot of women involved men are going to stay the fuck away. #metoo etc
Community activist groups
Activist is probably the wrong word since it tends to politics.
But I mean in the not a rainbow hair sense
But yeah. Groups that focus on organizing and solving local problems or assisting people who need it in the local community.
And they'd suck the fun right out of it. Have to police your speech, have to be on your best behavior. Can't act like 'one of the guys'.
And assisting their own members. Like a church.
None of the wahmen at HEMA have caused any problems
Gotta keep out of the incel headspace my dude
The married couple that runs the place swordfight and hunt, one of the women who teaches there watches JRE and JBP
And it's a sport that involves being hit with sticks. You sign a waiver
all women are dangerous
Tell that to your mother.
their erratic emotions can wreak havoc on the wellbeing of others
i feel good
you know that i would
I FEEEELLL NICE
I think we can safely say that the women who dress up in armor and beat each other with poles are outliers.
How many wahmen had beta uprisings?
LIKE SUGAR AND SPICE
this stuff tastes like vanilla birthday cake
omg is so good
My point in bringing up women's participation in social clubs is not to disparage women. It's just that generally speaking women aren't the ones having problems. They're not the ones shooting each other.
The conversation was about urban violence. And generally speaking that's a male problem.
The clubs aren't just there to be help groups for men's issues
The idea is to bring the community together
Like if we live in a neighborhood I want to know that we have each other's backs, and that we're all working towards keeping the place free and secure
So like maybe we have a neighbourhood watch, and we have groups that go and help the elderly with maintenance or chip in to get that playground built
lol my neighborhood is so far from that. complete urban isolation.
That's a lot of places
And I think that's one of the key issues
It's a very key issue.
The loss of community is a big part of why the government keeps finding it's way to solve problems.
It's also why people can't seem to empathize or relate to each other.
Well it's the same as pulling people out of extremist groups
Everyone just returns to their little circle and is basically alone.
You introduce them to the people they say they hate
It's horrible from a psychological standpoint.
That's how you decon KKK members
And how you keep things from spiraling crazily out of control.
We've created a society where you can be surrounded by millions of people and yet be more socially isolated than the countryside.
kkk: kreamy kim kardashian
And when everyone is depressed and alone everyone just turns to drugs and "self care"
Well to be fair, that's because you can't know anywhere near that many people
But there have traditionally been pretty significant organizations that provided some community.
Stuff like the American Legion. Or Rotary Clubs.
Both of which still exist but are dying quickly.
I really like the guilds idea too
Particularly in the Urban cores.
Wherein they can provide financial aid but you also are expected to take on certain responsibilities
Only way to keep society from spiraling out of control is to Educate on truth and allow the free exchange of ideas in the public domain. Without free exchange, how can people can convince each other something is wrong or show the truth to those in echo chambers? By placing people in tribes, you lead to conflicting ideologies and people end up embolden to use violence against each other.
That is just my take on things.
You're not going to get people to be open minded without fixing the isolation issue
Not quite sure I see your point.
Community -> Education -> Legislation
Echo chambers leads to tribal mentality, where one group won't listen to the other and they are more willing to use violence to solve their problems.
Or as Peterson would say, "get your own house in order"
People have to empathize before they listen
I'd actually say that the social justice push *and* the white supremacists *and* the rise of nationalism are all reflections of the same desire for people to reform communities.
"Why should I listen to a hateful evil doubleHitler?"
I'd agree yeah
Social justice and white sumpremecists are both racist in nature.
I blame twitter and other medias, for forcing people into echo chambers on social media, thus in turn further entrenching tribalism which is lead to more violent conflicts between people.
But they do create self-segregated cultures and communities.
Social justice and identity politics did push the social medias to this.
People were in echo chambers pre twitter
Twitter just further entrenches it.
What I am saying.
There were different forums for different groups, different entire websites even
They are making the problem so much more worse.
And networks of sites
@Dusty Morgan I'm not sure I get the relation of echo chambers and stuff to the formation of communities. Are you saying local community orgs are bad because they form echo chambers? Or are you saying it's a seperate issue entirely?
No. I think twitter is just a litmus test
You're looking through the microscope now and you don't like how far things have gone
@Beemann Exactly. DailyKos and FreeRepublic both existed and I'm sure the bases hated each other.
I am saying the community orgs today are "FORCING" people into echo chambers, which leads to them being exposed to identity politics without any counter argument to persuade them from following those politics.
They don't force them into that though. Block bots are voluntary.
You don't conform to my ideology and you are making people offended, therefor you are banned from this thread.
No one wants to engage and debate, to thus change the mind of the individual.
It's not like SocJus2016 was listening to Mark Cernovich prior to the Twitter crackdowns
And admin abuse has been a thing for a long time
I am not talking about smaller social media, the forums, discord, etc, etc...
I think these problems go back a lot further
I didn't say you were
I am talking about the big social media sites, the ones that controls communication around the world.
Yes, so was I
It is so much more likely that you will be exposed to bad ideas and entrenched in the ideas when people are always like... your racists and fascists, therefor you must only be placed in the echo chambers with actual racists and fascists.
No aspect of Twitter's operation can make it more divisive and echo chamber-y than the actual echo chambers that existed prior
That were already being used by its current user base