#general (Discord ID: 463054787336732683) in Subverse, page 413


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2018-08-22 00:44:03 UTC

>Middle class women have been driving the resistance.
Really makes you ponder women's suffrage

2018-08-22 00:44:23 UTC

I'd argue it was #MeToo.

2018-08-22 00:44:40 UTC

They've basically re-written alot of the Democratic party at this point.

2018-08-22 00:44:53 UTC

Didn't the political divide map closest to guns?

2018-08-22 00:45:01 UTC

Issue-wise, yes.

2018-08-22 00:45:14 UTC

It's also heavily decided by population density.

2018-08-22 00:45:17 UTC

that would be authoritarian vs libertarian

2018-08-22 00:45:22 UTC

not left/right

2018-08-22 00:45:27 UTC

many gun owning liberals

2018-08-22 00:45:38 UTC

Guns are a true urban/rural issue.

2018-08-22 00:45:44 UTC

Also didn't white wahmen get Trump elected?

2018-08-22 00:45:55 UTC

In part.

2018-08-22 00:45:58 UTC

many reasons trump got elected

2018-08-22 00:45:59 UTC

Not in total.

2018-08-22 00:46:04 UTC

I remember him scoring remarkably well within certain age groups

2018-08-22 00:46:16 UTC

2016 = Hilary beat herself

2018-08-22 00:46:20 UTC

2020 = people vote for trump

2018-08-22 00:46:23 UTC

Mostly voter turnout was low, which favors Republicans.

2018-08-22 00:46:45 UTC

So glad Harmful is back

2018-08-22 00:47:07 UTC

Rural people (liberals included) tend to see guns as key tools for fending against animals and potential attackers.

Urbanites (conservatives included) see guns purely as a weapon for crime.

2018-08-22 00:47:51 UTC

Which is interesting because there are more human attackers in the cities

2018-08-22 00:48:22 UTC

A theory I like is that rural living tends to make people self-reliant. Urban living makes people dependent.

2018-08-22 00:48:44 UTC

people in citys have a stronger force acting on them than self preservation

2018-08-22 00:48:46 UTC

media

2018-08-22 00:49:01 UTC

So when you're at risk of being attacked, rural people will tend to ask what they might do to protect themselves. Urbanites will tend to ask what it would take to get someone else to take care of them.

2018-08-22 00:49:18 UTC

besides the government doesent get to spend your tax money on defending you if you can defend yourself

2018-08-22 00:49:24 UTC

The problem there is that the latter isn't really feasible

2018-08-22 00:49:42 UTC

Government generally doesn't defend you. Government cleans up the mess afterwards.

2018-08-22 00:49:55 UTC

Feasibility doesn't matter. Appearance of Feasibility does.

2018-08-22 00:50:01 UTC

The government doesn't defend you in the present tense. The government tries to disincentivize attacking you and tries to punish your attacker

2018-08-22 00:50:16 UTC

See but that's where we get into the cognitive dissonance

2018-08-22 00:50:28 UTC

The argument makes some sense. IF the attacker cannot get a gun THEN they cannot attack you with said gun.

2018-08-22 00:50:35 UTC

Wherein the left hates both cops and self defense

2018-08-22 00:50:51 UTC

Or at least the most efficient method of self defense

2018-08-22 00:50:52 UTC

The weakness is that the government doesn't actually tend to succeed at stopping people.

2018-08-22 00:51:13 UTC

That argument tends to lead to spoon licenses.

2018-08-22 00:51:28 UTC

police CAN work

2018-08-22 00:51:30 UTC

But if you accept the premise, the logic is sound. And the government can at least make it harder for law abiding people and reduce the number in circulation.

2018-08-22 00:51:31 UTC

Oi m8

2018-08-22 00:51:49 UTC

But in practice, guns still find their ways into the hands of gangs and the like.

2018-08-22 00:51:50 UTC

Police can work in some ways yes

2018-08-22 00:51:50 UTC

but modern police dont work

2018-08-22 00:51:53 UTC

Like in Chicago, where handguns are banned and nobody gets killed with handguns.

2018-08-22 00:51:54 UTC

But they cannot defend you

2018-08-22 00:51:55 UTC

Even in places with gun bans.

2018-08-22 00:52:24 UTC

It's infeasible unless you live close enough to a station

2018-08-22 00:52:31 UTC

Or a cop happens to be in the area

2018-08-22 00:52:34 UTC

theres actually no reason for the militarization of police, if you really think about the weapons police are facing, they havent really changed in lethality since ww2

2018-08-22 00:52:39 UTC

Police help. It is a deterrent if nothing else. And the law must have a lawman in charge of enforcing it. Or it's pointless.

2018-08-22 00:53:09 UTC

They've arguably become worse

2018-08-22 00:53:16 UTC

I wish liberals would stop focusing on HOW people are killing each other and focus instead on WHY people are killing each other. They'd probably have lots of good ideas for tackling that problem. They're much better suited for solving issues of motivation than conservatives.

2018-08-22 00:53:32 UTC

In the 40s you could own military weaponry

2018-08-22 00:54:12 UTC

And then in the 60s and 80s they started walking shit back

2018-08-22 00:54:31 UTC

Kennedy & Reagan.

2018-08-22 00:55:18 UTC

Complete knee-jerk reaction too, as laws passed wouldn't have stopped the assassins.

2018-08-22 00:55:33 UTC

That's how most regulation tends to work, TBH.

2018-08-22 00:56:41 UTC

Like obviously there are still people who get ahold of modern automatics and shit, but for the most part cops deal with handguns afaik

2018-08-22 00:57:19 UTC

There was a famous case where some bank robbers got some rather high-quality weapons and some high-grade body armor and went absolutely ballistic.

2018-08-22 00:57:24 UTC

Automatic weapons, whether legally owned or illegally modified, are exceptionally rare in crimes.

2018-08-22 00:57:31 UTC

That spooked the police forces into arming up.

2018-08-22 00:57:47 UTC

But I'm also not in agreement with those people who seem to always seem to assume fault with LEOs

2018-08-22 00:58:05 UTC

Well there aren't many people who can legally own automatic weapons

2018-08-22 00:58:09 UTC

It's mostly handguns, sawed-off shotguns, etc. But again that's focusing on HOW instead of WHY.

2018-08-22 00:58:15 UTC

As per last century's legislation rush

2018-08-22 00:58:29 UTC

And those who do own collectors items and relics lol

2018-08-22 00:58:39 UTC

I think the actual driver of the militarization of the police is Iraq.

Left alot of spare military equipment no one could really use so the DOD offloaded it cheap.

2018-08-22 00:58:55 UTC

And I'm not sure that's necessarily *too* bad on it's own.

2018-08-22 00:58:58 UTC

That seems feasible yeah

2018-08-22 00:59:33 UTC

A lot of grants were issued for that sort of thing. Basically "Here's half a million bucks for your department, but you have to spend it on surplus"

2018-08-22 00:59:43 UTC

I think the main issue re:cops is the lack of connection with the community, probably at least in part due to the severe lack of community to connect to

2018-08-22 00:59:54 UTC

^ The real issue.

2018-08-22 01:00:08 UTC

And one that I think libertarians in particular don't recognize, understand or plan to fix.

2018-08-22 01:00:20 UTC

drinking and thinking

2018-08-22 01:00:20 UTC

Even though it's probably a major driver of the expansion of government.

2018-08-22 01:00:28 UTC

I plan to fix it, but I can only do it on a local level really

2018-08-22 01:00:30 UTC

vanilla rum and coke is actually quite delicioso my duded

2018-08-22 01:00:37 UTC

These are choices people have to make for themselves

2018-08-22 01:00:47 UTC

@Beemann that's how it starts. That's how it works.

2018-08-22 01:00:49 UTC

oh shit

2018-08-22 01:00:53 UTC

almost threw up in my mouth

2018-08-22 01:01:04 UTC

It's a great place in which liberals could apply their strengths but they fixate on guns instead of the social issues. Probably because they're embarrassed about the social issues.

2018-08-22 01:01:08 UTC

It's a major weakness we are approaching as the country becomes more secular IMO.

2018-08-22 01:01:31 UTC

2muchdrank?

2018-08-22 01:01:57 UTC

I'm sorry i have only had one glass

2018-08-22 01:02:09 UTC

Vanilla rum and coke but i usually fill it halfway with rum before i add the coke

2018-08-22 01:02:10 UTC

Yeah I think the problem is that people became obsessed with tearing down structures, and ignored why they were there

2018-08-22 01:02:15 UTC

Which isn't just a secular problem mind

2018-08-22 01:02:36 UTC

Dawkins said something about that recently if I recall.

2018-08-22 01:02:49 UTC

All trad structures got attacked, but rather than building up more open, contemporary systems people just splintered

2018-08-22 01:03:00 UTC

<:commie:463087263153258506>

2018-08-22 01:03:04 UTC

Harris promotes spirituality

2018-08-22 01:03:11 UTC

Hitchens was big on community and duty

2018-08-22 01:03:12 UTC

I have a question friends

2018-08-22 01:03:29 UTC

Nobody wondered why every people, tribe, civilization, etc, had religious institutions. They all assumed it was a big coinkydink

2018-08-22 01:03:37 UTC

Would it be worth my time to buy mein kampf

2018-08-22 01:03:42 UTC

barnes and noble sells it

2018-08-22 01:03:46 UTC

The left actually has been creating local organizations. Look up We for example.

2018-08-22 01:03:54 UTC

Just Gutenberg it

2018-08-22 01:03:55 UTC

Like has there ever been an atheist tribe anywhere?

2018-08-22 01:04:05 UTC

The right had it with churches and things like 4H.

2018-08-22 01:04:18 UTC

But the elites [e.g. University admissions] in society actually discriminate against people in things like the Boy Scouts.

2018-08-22 01:04:28 UTC

Old school men's clubs.

2018-08-22 01:04:28 UTC

There are secular groups

2018-08-22 01:04:49 UTC

Fraternal orders

2018-08-22 01:04:50 UTC

There's not really a group of people who don't believe in shit explicitly outside of maybe conventions

2018-08-22 01:05:17 UTC

I'd actually say the re-creation of middle america is the most important project for the right right now. If it can quit being so extremely libertine long enough to do it.

2018-08-22 01:05:24 UTC

You'll just find higher concentrations of the nonreligious in various areas

2018-08-22 01:05:29 UTC

god this alcohol is making me feel weird

2018-08-22 01:05:31 UTC

like

2018-08-22 01:05:34 UTC

my tummy

2018-08-22 01:05:44 UTC

Proud Boys were started with the idea of building a new men's club but that didn't exactly turn out well.

2018-08-22 01:05:46 UTC

The Rand Paul healthcare amendment actually has historical precedents in things like the Knights of Columbus.

2018-08-22 01:05:46 UTC

Stop drinking and have some water m8

2018-08-22 01:05:52 UTC

water later

2018-08-22 01:05:57 UTC

alcohol N O E

2018-08-22 01:05:58 UTC

W

2018-08-22 01:06:09 UTC

1 glass of water per drank my dude

2018-08-22 01:06:42 UTC

hoe up

2018-08-22 01:06:43 UTC

dranj

2018-08-22 01:06:45 UTC

American Legion, Rotary Clubs, The Lions...all these groups are increasingly graying and dying.

2018-08-22 01:06:47 UTC

sit down

2018-08-22 01:06:48 UTC

drank

2018-08-22 01:06:49 UTC

1 beer, 1 water, 1 rum and coke, 1 water. Avoid dehydration

2018-08-22 01:06:53 UTC

noooo

2018-08-22 01:06:56 UTC

Within a week of hearing about a local Proud Boys chapter I heard that they all lost their jobs and it shut down.

2018-08-22 01:07:12 UTC

@OofYeetEye

Try eating some bread. It should absorb some of it.

2018-08-22 01:07:17 UTC

Or just vomit it all out.

2018-08-22 01:07:25 UTC

i hate vomiting

2018-08-22 01:07:29 UTC

comes out my nose

2018-08-22 01:07:31 UTC

I've actually been having a lot of fun with HEMA and am meeting some neat people through that

2018-08-22 01:07:41 UTC

Incl. some fellow libertarians

2018-08-22 01:07:47 UTC

@Atkins yeah, that's the strategy of the left. Destroy any kind of counter organizations they can.

2018-08-22 01:08:01 UTC

@Beemann HEMA?

2018-08-22 01:08:02 UTC

I love destroying

2018-08-22 01:08:18 UTC

Historical European Martial Arts. Longswords and single stick and shit

2018-08-22 01:08:24 UTC

Oh. A social group.

2018-08-22 01:08:45 UTC

A sports organization, effectively

2018-08-22 01:08:47 UTC

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like the Lions when thinking of middle American society.

2018-08-22 01:08:52 UTC

Yeah I guess MMA groups would be kinda the new men's clubs.

2018-08-22 01:09:04 UTC

Essentially alot of charity and local imporvement

2018-08-22 01:09:05 UTC

Yeah I've seen a lot of martial arts places pop up

2018-08-22 01:09:08 UTC

Pain & violence would keep the womenfolk away.

2018-08-22 01:09:17 UTC

does alcohol make you feel hot

2018-08-22 01:09:18 UTC

Think of how you need to build a bridge or something to get an Eagle Scout.

2018-08-22 01:09:20 UTC

Oh there's still wahmen, just fewer

2018-08-22 01:09:21 UTC

like temperature wise

2018-08-22 01:09:29 UTC

And yeah I get what you mean, and I agree

2018-08-22 01:09:38 UTC

Shit like neighborhood watches and such

2018-08-22 01:09:51 UTC

If there's a lot of women involved men are going to stay the fuck away. #metoo etc

2018-08-22 01:09:53 UTC

Community activist groups

2018-08-22 01:10:07 UTC

Activist is probably the wrong word since it tends to politics.

2018-08-22 01:10:11 UTC

Sure

2018-08-22 01:10:20 UTC

But I mean in the not a rainbow hair sense

2018-08-22 01:10:26 UTC

But yeah. Groups that focus on organizing and solving local problems or assisting people who need it in the local community.

2018-08-22 01:10:32 UTC

And they'd suck the fun right out of it. Have to police your speech, have to be on your best behavior. Can't act like 'one of the guys'.

2018-08-22 01:10:40 UTC

And assisting their own members. Like a church.

2018-08-22 01:10:50 UTC

None of the wahmen at HEMA have caused any problems

2018-08-22 01:11:22 UTC

Yeah, not all women are danger hairs @Atkins.

2018-08-22 01:11:38 UTC

Gotta keep out of the incel headspace my dude

2018-08-22 01:12:14 UTC

The married couple that runs the place swordfight and hunt, one of the women who teaches there watches JRE and JBP

2018-08-22 01:12:40 UTC

And it's a sport that involves being hit with sticks. You sign a waiver

2018-08-22 01:12:53 UTC

@pratel im sorry but youre wrong

2018-08-22 01:12:56 UTC

all women are dangerous

2018-08-22 01:13:10 UTC

Tell that to your mother.

2018-08-22 01:13:11 UTC

their erratic emotions can wreak havoc on the wellbeing of others

2018-08-22 01:13:14 UTC

i have

2018-08-22 01:13:23 UTC

i feel good

2018-08-22 01:13:25 UTC

NANANANA

2018-08-22 01:13:29 UTC

you know that i would

2018-08-22 01:13:31 UTC

NANANAN

2018-08-22 01:13:37 UTC

I FEEEELLL NICE

2018-08-22 01:13:39 UTC

I think we can safely say that the women who dress up in armor and beat each other with poles are outliers.

2018-08-22 01:13:39 UTC

How many wahmen had beta uprisings?

2018-08-22 01:13:42 UTC

LIKE SUGAR AND SPICE

2018-08-22 01:15:43 UTC

this stuff tastes like vanilla birthday cake

2018-08-22 01:15:47 UTC

omg is so good

2018-08-22 01:16:31 UTC

My point in bringing up women's participation in social clubs is not to disparage women. It's just that generally speaking women aren't the ones having problems. They're not the ones shooting each other.

2018-08-22 01:17:05 UTC

The conversation was about urban violence. And generally speaking that's a male problem.

2018-08-22 01:17:06 UTC

The clubs aren't just there to be help groups for men's issues

2018-08-22 01:17:14 UTC

The idea is to bring the community together

2018-08-22 01:17:20 UTC

Generally speaking

2018-08-22 01:18:15 UTC

Like if we live in a neighborhood I want to know that we have each other's backs, and that we're all working towards keeping the place free and secure

2018-08-22 01:19:06 UTC

So like maybe we have a neighbourhood watch, and we have groups that go and help the elderly with maintenance or chip in to get that playground built

2018-08-22 01:19:27 UTC

lol my neighborhood is so far from that. complete urban isolation.

2018-08-22 01:19:35 UTC

That's a lot of places

2018-08-22 01:20:53 UTC

And I think that's one of the key issues

2018-08-22 01:21:00 UTC

It's a very key issue.

2018-08-22 01:21:16 UTC

The loss of community is a big part of why the government keeps finding it's way to solve problems.

2018-08-22 01:21:34 UTC

It's also why people can't seem to empathize or relate to each other.

2018-08-22 01:21:52 UTC

Well it's the same as pulling people out of extremist groups

2018-08-22 01:21:56 UTC

Everyone just returns to their little circle and is basically alone.

2018-08-22 01:22:02 UTC

You introduce them to the people they say they hate

2018-08-22 01:22:18 UTC

It's horrible from a psychological standpoint.

2018-08-22 01:22:21 UTC

That's how you decon KKK members

2018-08-22 01:22:26 UTC

^

2018-08-22 01:22:43 UTC

And how you keep things from spiraling crazily out of control.

2018-08-22 01:23:17 UTC

We've created a society where you can be surrounded by millions of people and yet be more socially isolated than the countryside.

2018-08-22 01:23:26 UTC

kkk: kreamy kim kardashian

2018-08-22 01:23:49 UTC

And when everyone is depressed and alone everyone just turns to drugs and "self care"

2018-08-22 01:23:55 UTC

Well to be fair, that's because you can't know anywhere near that many people

2018-08-22 01:24:01 UTC

It's overstimulation

2018-08-22 01:24:04 UTC

Agreed.

2018-08-22 01:24:20 UTC

But there have traditionally been pretty significant organizations that provided some community.

2018-08-22 01:24:26 UTC

Absolutely

2018-08-22 01:24:33 UTC

Stuff like the American Legion. Or Rotary Clubs.

2018-08-22 01:24:45 UTC

Both of which still exist but are dying quickly.

2018-08-22 01:24:47 UTC

I really like the guilds idea too

2018-08-22 01:24:53 UTC

Particularly in the Urban cores.

2018-08-22 01:25:11 UTC

Wherein they can provide financial aid but you also are expected to take on certain responsibilities

2018-08-22 01:25:17 UTC

Only way to keep society from spiraling out of control is to Educate on truth and allow the free exchange of ideas in the public domain. Without free exchange, how can people can convince each other something is wrong or show the truth to those in echo chambers? By placing people in tribes, you lead to conflicting ideologies and people end up embolden to use violence against each other.

2018-08-22 01:25:39 UTC

That is just my take on things.

2018-08-22 01:25:41 UTC

You're not going to get people to be open minded without fixing the isolation issue

2018-08-22 01:25:41 UTC

Not quite sure I see your point.

2018-08-22 01:25:49 UTC

^

2018-08-22 01:26:03 UTC

Community -> Education -> Legislation

2018-08-22 01:26:21 UTC

Echo chambers leads to tribal mentality, where one group won't listen to the other and they are more willing to use violence to solve their problems.

2018-08-22 01:26:28 UTC

Or as Peterson would say, "get your own house in order"

2018-08-22 01:26:49 UTC

People have to empathize before they listen

2018-08-22 01:27:03 UTC

I'd actually say that the social justice push *and* the white supremacists *and* the rise of nationalism are all reflections of the same desire for people to reform communities.

2018-08-22 01:27:09 UTC

"Why should I listen to a hateful evil doubleHitler?"

2018-08-22 01:27:13 UTC

I'd agree yeah

2018-08-22 01:27:16 UTC

Social justice and white sumpremecists are both racist in nature.

2018-08-22 01:27:18 UTC

I blame twitter and other medias, for forcing people into echo chambers on social media, thus in turn further entrenching tribalism which is lead to more violent conflicts between people.

2018-08-22 01:27:30 UTC

But they do create self-segregated cultures and communities.

2018-08-22 01:27:38 UTC

Social justice and identity politics did push the social medias to this.

2018-08-22 01:27:47 UTC

People were in echo chambers pre twitter

2018-08-22 01:28:00 UTC

Twitter just further entrenches it.

2018-08-22 01:28:04 UTC

What I am saying.

2018-08-22 01:28:06 UTC

There were different forums for different groups, different entire websites even

2018-08-22 01:28:12 UTC

They are making the problem so much more worse.

2018-08-22 01:28:13 UTC

And networks of sites

2018-08-22 01:28:23 UTC

@Dusty Morgan I'm not sure I get the relation of echo chambers and stuff to the formation of communities. Are you saying local community orgs are bad because they form echo chambers? Or are you saying it's a seperate issue entirely?

2018-08-22 01:28:24 UTC

No. I think twitter is just a litmus test

2018-08-22 01:28:45 UTC

You're looking through the microscope now and you don't like how far things have gone

2018-08-22 01:28:59 UTC

@Beemann Exactly. DailyKos and FreeRepublic both existed and I'm sure the bases hated each other.

2018-08-22 01:29:21 UTC

I am saying the community orgs today are "FORCING" people into echo chambers, which leads to them being exposed to identity politics without any counter argument to persuade them from following those politics.

2018-08-22 01:29:47 UTC

They don't force them into that though. Block bots are voluntary.

2018-08-22 01:30:09 UTC

You don't conform to my ideology and you are making people offended, therefor you are banned from this thread.

2018-08-22 01:30:27 UTC

No one wants to engage and debate, to thus change the mind of the individual.

2018-08-22 01:30:50 UTC

It's not like SocJus2016 was listening to Mark Cernovich prior to the Twitter crackdowns

2018-08-22 01:31:20 UTC

And admin abuse has been a thing for a long time

2018-08-22 01:31:46 UTC

I am not talking about smaller social media, the forums, discord, etc, etc...

2018-08-22 01:31:53 UTC

I think these problems go back a lot further

2018-08-22 01:31:58 UTC

I didn't say you were

2018-08-22 01:32:01 UTC

I am talking about the big social media sites, the ones that controls communication around the world.

2018-08-22 01:32:07 UTC

Yes, so was I

2018-08-22 01:32:40 UTC

It is so much more likely that you will be exposed to bad ideas and entrenched in the ideas when people are always like... your racists and fascists, therefor you must only be placed in the echo chambers with actual racists and fascists.

2018-08-22 01:33:08 UTC

No aspect of Twitter's operation can make it more divisive and echo chamber-y than the actual echo chambers that existed prior

2018-08-22 01:33:28 UTC

That were already being used by its current user base

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