#tradworker (Discord ID: 274535531927568384) in tradworker, page 182
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They provide for themselves. But they can't build an entire power grid or water system my man
But the people in Appalachia can just move at any time! Maybe to a big city center
"a luxury once enjoyed brclmrd a necessity" internet I'd now a necessity. So is air conditioning. A cell phone, etc
That requires capital in this system. Something these people don't have.
Hadrian, lots of people did this to work in factories, etc
Alot of them were forced by the way
I was actually reading about this the other day.
The business owners who needed labor would collude with local government and other land owners to force out farmers and the like.
So they'd eventually move into cities for work
The rural farmers and peasants pre industrial age were infinitely more wealthy than the factory workers
I agree, government is evil ;)
And now their children pay $80,000 a year to rent a broom closet
Okay so lets remove the government from this situation
The wealthy now hire boys with guns to forcefully move these people
Which should be fought against. And local thugs are a lot easier to fight against than the federal government
Without the safe guards of a central government what prevents the wealthy from monopolizing force
Feudalism lacked alot of these safe guards, and as a result the peasantry were directly under the whims of the local wealthy such as nobles.
"We need some manpower for this war. Get the fuck off your farm and come with us. Or we kill you and seize your assets"
Without a strong central government, who will build the gas chambers?
Jones, the wealthy already monopolize force
If we eliminate the government (or most of its power) then that disappears. If it comes back in some other form then we should fight that, also
I dont understand how it disappears
Factory owners can't force government to take land from farmers
Yes. They just do it themselves
Slum lords can't block building permits
Right, they just buy the land up outright
That happens much less often , and I agree, it shouldn't happen either, but government does it far more
Thats because we live in a neo capitalist society where our governments often adhere to the whims of the wealthy
The greatest goal of the wealthy is to retain capital and prevent us peasants from aquiring it
We have crony capitalism. Government interferes constantly. America was wealthier and there was far less poverty before the welfare state
Jones, you shouldn't think of yourself as a peasant. You should look at how wealthy people acquired their money and do it yourself
9 out of 10 millionaires in America are self made, meaning they didn't inherit it
We had far more pure capitalism a century ago, and it was pretty bad
The owner of the corp I currently work for, aquired his capital and started his business by splicing into the local infastructure of the existing telecom companies. An act like that today would put me away for a very long time
So what he did was not only illegal but unethical
A trend you see often by those with wealth in this system
And purely capitalist systems as a whole
We don't live in a purely capitalist audience
I didn't say we did. I'm saying that this has happened in more pure capitalist socieities as well
In the late 19th century, business owners often would relocate their employees to towns they built paying them in vouchers only valid in these workers towns
Child labor, unsafe working conditions, no protections
As opposed to what
As opposed to these workers having some level of freedom and self determination.
They have the freedom to work there or not to
Or to start their own factory
With what capital
Capital is created
When you're just a few paychecks away from starving, starting your own factory is not even remotely an option
You can't simply create the wealth or funds required to build capital
So you can work for someone else or be self employed and save up money to start your own business
This was what the majority of business owners did. The alternative was to be self sufficient and live in what was objectively poverty, living off the land
It was legal rulings and governments mandates that at the time were considered socialistic that put an end to such practices
So, you can live off the land, or work for someone else & work your way up. How is that bad?
There was not a ladder to work yourself up. How do you work your way up on employee vouchers
The land you don't own?
At one point, child labor laws were considered socialism
Jones, I'm not aware of any companies doing this anymore
Refer to my above statements
Why do you think they don't do it anymore?
Because big government banned it
Because another company will come along & offer them a better form of payment
Did somebody let a Libertarian into the TWP server?
No, because the government mandated a wage in US dollars
People came to work for Henry Ford because he paid more, they did this voluntarily
Why would they have to, if their buddy in big oil company 1 is doing it. What motivation does big oil company 2 have to improve the situation
Not just a Libertarian, seems like an ancap
Why not collude together to keep the workers under their yoke
Jones, they don't have to work for an oil company
Venezuela is socialism
I know it's accelerated by brown people
But every socialist policy always fails
Social security will run out by 2030
Venezuela is *Marxian* socialism
So will Medicare
Venezuela failed because they focused their entire company around the export of Oil
Welfare and big government in any dorm is socialist
And when the Oil prices crashed in 2015, which mind you also effected many oil companies in primarily capitalist countries, this effected them deeply
There are different types of socialism. There's is communist. Ours is economic Third Position
You're pointing towards one aspect of the Venuzuelian economy and ignoring others
Alberta is a fairly capiatalistic province of Canada that faced pretty high unemployment during this time as well because their local economy was built on oil
Building your society around one product is risky
What happens when oil prices fall, is resources leave oil and will go to more profitable ventures
Except that's not what's happening
because oil companies are cock blocking every attempt at alternative energies they can
Instead we are investing more and more money for less and less return in more dangerous methods of extracting oil
By what mechanism are they preventing other sources of energy
Cockblocking any legislation in government that would fund or allow grants for companies seeking to research altnerative energy, copy righting methods and other means of R&D into these energies. Invesiting millions into ads and public relations to scare us off from the idea of nuclear energy, electric cars, etc.
And again we see government is the roadblock
Government is also the middleman from them just doing these things themselves
Would you agree that a large portion of welfare recipients in America are parasites
Meaning they are able and capable of working but they don't because why bother
A small portion
Most welfare recipients are non white. They aren't parasites?
Many lifers exist in welfare because they hit a road block. Where its more profitable to stay at a certain income level while receiving welfare, than to receive a dollar or two raise in pay, but lose the welfare
They suffer under a broken system that exists and benefits from keeping them in service
Yes, that's the welfare cliff
And this culture we have promotes pleasure and the individual needs above collective good. When we implement cultural changes to promote community and family, people won't want to be parasites
But it's false to compare this to national socialism
It creates a perverse incentive to not work longer hours & avoid pay raises
If we eliminate welfare, people won't have the possibility to be parasites
Either be productive or starve. If you are a legitimate victim, then private charity can fill in. It's not moral if I'm forced to give money at the point of a gun
In a high trust society like we want, we can have nice things like welfare and universal health care
You don't need universal healthcare to have healthcare
Along the lines of what Hadrian is saying. You're focusing on the socialism under our current low trust broken system, while ignoring the results of socialism under a high trust nationalistic system
Everything government currently provides was once provided by private individuals
Or not provided in any form
I agree that any system is going to work better with whites
And people lived for 35 miserable years
It's not just about being under whites
Libya worked wonderfully
Before (((They))) killed Ghaddafi
Hadrian, because we had a much poorer understanding of modern medicine, not because a lack of government. Everyone died young
What motivated people to improve healhcare. Because it was not primarily profit
It was out of a sense of common good and duty to ones people
Not just medicine. Local crop failures led to mass starvation, among other things
Anyways the wife is glaring at me. I gotta put my kid to bed. Feel free to keep it going. Discussion is good
Because if you offer a magic pill that increases your lifespan 50 years, do you think people would be willing to pay you for that?
Goodnight bro, and thank you for doing your part at repopulating our race
We'll never measure up to those chad IE guys man. Getting shouted down by a bunch of fat pink hairs at gainesville
That was peak optics right there
My ideal society is a 100% white ethnostate with maximum freedom. If people want to form a socialist commune within the country, they should be able to, but the libertarian town shouldn't be forced to pay for it
Don't you want to help your fellow people?
Yes, and I do, through charity
Taxation and welfare is theft and violence, not charity
It's not moral if I have a gun held to my head
You realize this is a discord chanel for TWP, a national SOCIALIST org right?
Not trying to shit on you man but cmon
And you shouldn't be allowed to accumulate wealth through unrestrained greed while your fellow white people are poor through no fault of their own
Jones agrees that debate is good. If mods don't want opposing viewpoints then I'll stop bringing it up.
How is it greed to want to keep the money I earned, but it's not greed to want to take it from me?
It's not that you earn money, it's how you do so
In capitalism, it's by providing services people are willing to pay me for
If you're treating people fairly, that's fine
None of us want to take your home, food etc. We encourage business
I'd like to reiterate I'm 100% on board with nationalism. And I'd rather live in a socialist all white country than a capitalist multi ethnic society.
The great thing about capitalism is, if you don't think what I'm offering is fair, you don't have to do business with me
And when the heating oil company starts charging exorbitant rates in the winter?
Should we just not do business with them?
I bet if a ceo did that, he would be hated by everyone in society
They do that now wtf
Who would ostracize him and refuse to offer their business with him
That only happens if there's a monopoly
And monopolies only exist when the government creates themv
Or when there are a limited number of companies and they all do it
Why can pharmacy companies charge $500 for one pill? Because government made it illegal for anyone else to make it
There are tons of duopolies that do the same thing right here in america
Because government stops competition from coming on the scene
Government didn't create Standard Oil
On a long enough timeline pure capitalism creates a monarchical type system
The thing about capitalism is that the rich get richer, no matter what
Government broke it up
Unless they're doing something dumb, the rich get richer without government involvement
Usually when wealth is inherited, it's squandered
I'm not familiar with the history of standard oil
It doesn't have to be passed strictly be inheritance
Holy fuck I just say IE cucking hard on Shelbyville
They're saying they're the future of the right l m a o
Standard oil was the company owned by John D rockefeller. He'd pioneered a new method of the production of Oil where instead of paying say for instance a moving company to move the product, or a limber company for limber, he bought all the companies involved or at least the means to produce the product
It took the presidency of Teddy Rossevelt to end his stranglehold on American Oil. Even after that the Rockefellers are massively wealthy family to this day
They screwed over an entire industry, got rewarded for it, and they're still living like kings
Capitalism is kiked
It sounds like he found a way to produce oil more efficiently
So efficiently he cornered the market
Without any involvement from the government
Why shouldn't the most efficient corner the market?
That's not a monopoly
The competition wasn't efficient
But it was a monopoly. He was the only one who could offer the product for the price he could
And as a result the competition ceases to exist
The word monopoly was coined around this time because of companies like standard oil my man
Why is it the consumers fault for buying the best price available?
Redpill yourself about NS economics: http://ironmarch.org/index.php?/topic/6794-fascist-economics-and-socialism-of-duty/
Nobody is blaming the consumer
We're blaming government for not stepping in
The consumer often has no choice but to buy the cheapest product. They have no guilty in this
A monopoly only exists if it prevents competition from entering the market. Monopolies only exist because of the government
Standard Oil prevented other companies from entering the makret
That's simply not true
This argument is getting really circular
Lots of people pay more for "made in America" products. If I lived in a white ethnostate I would buy products made locally
If you could afford to
This is a great article as well
If you discover a way to make a product 100x cheaper than the next competitor, and you keep that production method to yourself, you're monopolizing the industry
Yeah I feel like we're seeing diminishing returns in this conversation
If I lived in the 1900s and had the resources to buy land & dig for oil, how would the Rockefeller prevent that?
You wouldn't be able to sell the oil for enough to make it worth your while
Offering you a ridiculous sum of money to not do it and give you the oil
And what Fevs says. Your prices could not compete with his in the first place
You would not own the timer companies, the truck companies. etc
If it can't compete then he deserves to have a 90% market share. It's what the consumer wants
And from there he can exploit the consumer
Without any recourse from the consumer
Government is the only recourse
He holds that 90% market share until everybody else is driven out of business
Between Apple and Samsung, they probably have 90% market share on smartphones . There are alternatives but they have this massive market share because it's what people want
Then skyrockets the price
Then it becomes profitable to compete again
But the barrier to entry isn't something easily achievable
He owns every step along the process, if you try to open up just ONE step of it, you'd have to use his company right?
He mines, transfers, and refines all his oil
Say you just mine it
He could charge you out the ass for transportation and refinement
White Americans would be mining our own oil if Obama's government didn't prevent the keystone Xl pipeline. Instead we give our money to Muslims, because government forbids otherwise
That's a modern example and issue caused because of government, not a lack of it
That's not a response
America produces over a third of our oil
Another third is provided by Canada and Mexico
That seemed extremely off topic
"Ultimately, the state is a tool. Whether it is good or bad depends on who is using it and for what purpose. The American government isn’t evil because it’s big and bloated. Imagine what this monstrously large institution could do in the hands of good men who care about the future of White people. Practically all of our ills could be cured in record time.
Individualism is a loser’s strategy in life’s game of survival of the fittest. Even for a cynical observer, it is indisputable that teamwork (and thus cooperation and empathy) are superior to individual effort: if might makes right, two men with sticks are mightier than one man alone.
The enemies of our people want us weak. With Marxism, they make us weak individually so that it matters not if we unite our forces. Through libertarianism, they insure that the strong among us stay isolated rather than uniting their powers and posing a threat."
As you said, we are going in circles about standard oil.
1. If he is selling it less expensive than the competition, then the consumer wins
2. If all competition goes away and he jacks up the price, competition will arise again, and the consumer wins
Also I like how you say "Obama's government"
We must abandon foolish notions of “objectivity” if those lead to our destruction. “Freedom” is no different from “tolerance”. We all understand now that tolerance is not a virtue if the thing being tolerated is evil (bad for our people and against the natural order). Likewise, freedom to commit evil cannot be considered desirable. All that matters is freedom to do good. Today, we are not free to do good, because all laws are inverted by our enemies. Wishful thinkers long for freedom, thinking ‘well, if we were totally free at least I could do the right thing’. This is a compromise. Instead, we should long for total victory, where the only freedom is freedom to do good (meaning, what is good for our people). Our enemies certainly don’t cheer for the freedom to do what they don’t like, and neither should we.
As if he was the one in control
Kombat, the state isn't a tool, no more than rape is a tool
Let me ask you guys something. Marxism is a 100% tax on your production. What is a 70% tax?
They both can be a tool. What do you mean?
Rape is immoral
I didn't say we should use it. Unlike the state.
It's taking without consent
The same as the government
Are you saying taxation is theft
I say let's have so much state until the kikes choke on it.
joke: taxation is theft
woke: taxation is rape
Demonstrate how taxation isn't theft
Like Rockwell said, doesn't matter how big a state but how good a state.
Theft is some nigger jacking your car, taxation in NS society goes to help your fellow whites. Are you retarded.
I feel like coming into the server of a National Socialist Worker Party and railing against National Socialism is not a productive thing to do
If nothing changes, Germany is going to become non white in one generation thanks to a massive state. No one should have that kind of power. The power to steal trillions and import your replacement.
You don't seem to concede that there's any merit at all to our core philosophy that the whole movement is built on
@Klutch I apologize for being rude to a fellow white nationalist, but your economic views are a meme and you need to reeducate yourself
"thanks to a massive state"
Migrants are coming primarily for the welfare state.
Yes, of course
There's been a welfare state for decades
Which is why they cross over countries with smaller social benefits like Poland and turkey and go to Germany, France, Sweden
What has changed now?
Also no worries Fevs
Libertarianism I feel is defeatism, like having capitulated any hope of gaining the supreme power in their own nations, and instead retreat to their own backyard and beg to be left alone while everything else is swallowed by the mudflood.
Nazi socialism has no gibs for nigs.
Libertarianism is also individualism
The mudflood, lol I like that term.
The difference is. A libertarian society would tolerate a socialist commune, but a socialist society would never tolerate a libertarian commune